Not long after M11, Prime Minister Bondevik said that for Norway to leave Iraq in June along with the Spaniards would send the wrong signal to the terrorists. Now he seems to have changed his mind. Foreign Minister Jan Petersen says today that Norway will likely leave Iraq within a few months, and prioritize efforts in other countries.

This may not be seen by al-Qaeda as an invitation to attack us, (nor will it discourage any existing plans of theirs), but it's a wrong and not very brave decision taken at a wrong time. Iraq is going through a difficult time. Local anti-democratic groups have gotten bolder and are pushing the Americans to see if they'll fall back. They won't, not yet, but it will take some suffering on both sides to prove that, and many other things can still go wrong. There's also (possibly) a transition to independence and democracy coming in the near future. Iraq needs us more than ever. And this is the time we choose to withdraw? Yes, there are other conflicts. The media speculates that the UN will ask for Norwegian forces in Sudan. Petersen mentions strengthening our presence in Kosovo and Afghanistan. But I suspect we do this to alleviate anti-American sentiments in Norway, and out of fear of attacks in Iraq.

Nobody wants to be held responsible for the death of Norwegian soldiers in a conflict associated with George W. Bush. To remain in Iraq would extend our presence dangerously close to the September 2005 election - and we all know what Spain taught al-Qaeda about pre-election terror campaigns. It is politically rational for Bondevik and Petersen to look for a safe, non-controversial peacekeeping mission elsewhere. It's a decision that may be rewarded in 2005. But not by me. The people of Iraq won't and shouldn't forgive the West if we abandon them yet again. We shouldn't be a part of that.

Bjørn: "It's a decision that may be rewarded in 2005. But not by me."

Nor by me. I have voted Conservative the last three elections, but this is likely to be the drop that will make me vote for The Progress Party.

It really surprises me though. Just a mere week ago Peterson stated that he was inclined to extend our support to Iraq.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article765077.ece

He must have taken some flip-flop lessons from Kerry.

Seriously though, it seems like he was just waiting for a politically opportune moment to announce that he would pull our forces. With the uprisings going on lately, this would be it.

You've got 1400 pounds of dynamite & 5000 detonators missing, leaving w/in a few months and going to the Sudan won't help.

We're fighting Iran now.

How about sending in the army to Iran to monitor their nuke programs?

Bjørn, the second link in your post is messed up. It should be:

http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/verden/article210496.ece

>Nobody wants to be held responsible for the death of Norwegian soldiers in a conflict associated with George W. Bush.

That's RIGHT! Because George W. Bush is a BAD MAN!

Saddam was a GOOD MAN! He kept the peace in Iraq!

You don't hear any stories about children being raped by Iraqi soldiers in front of their parents, but that's because BUSH IS A BAD MAN! And such things no longer happen!

You didn't hear any stories about children being raped by Iraqi soldiers in front of their parents, but that's because SADDAM WAS A GOOD MAN! And such news was repressed.

A clear message:

"Hey, al-Qaeda, we leave of our own free will before you bomb us."

Stupid, cowardly and tragic.

Is this really surprising? Given public opinion, the fact that you're mostly democracies and the way Europe has behaved historically.

Given the way the US has behaved historically, we won't "fall back...yet" or ever. But it's not a contradiction to say I think Bush is right to stick to the scheduled handover of power date--the Iraqis need to take responsibility for their own country. Ultimately, that's the only viable long term solution. And despite all of America's faults, most people here want to see others succeed and have the good life. Look at Ghaddafi (can't spell?), all he has to do is bleat a little bit about the need for openess and that WMD are bad, and suddenly all is forgiven.

But you cross us one too many times and we will put the hurt on you.

Schaudenfreude - why should Americans die for Norway? Boy, would I love to see that question on a Norweigan TV show.

Not you, Bjorn. If I had a supply of green cards, I know who I'd give them to.

We are in the very, very early stages of WWIV.

Sometimes I think down the road, the West's great works of art and the people who want to come to the US will to preserve what we once were and make the stand. And we'll make room.

Hell w/the rest of you, enjoy your dhimmitude.

Via Tim Blair:

Prime Minister-elect José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, who is due to take office on April 16, has stuck by his campaign promise to pull Spain's 1,300 troops out of Iraq at the end of June unless the United Nations has taken control of the occupation by then. This pledge was made before 10 coordinated bombs ripped apart four commuter trains and killed 191 people on March 11.

But now, many in Spain say they do not think about a UN mandate when they talk about the need to withdraw troops. They say they think about avoiding more terrorist attacks, leaving the new government's motive for a possible pullout uncomfortably out of line with views on the street. It also makes it more vulnerable to criticism from abroad, notably from some Americans, that Spaniards are appeasing terrorists by demanding a troop withdrawal.

In an opinion poll conducted last week for the Spanish radio broadcaster Ser, 38 percent of respondents wanted Spanish troops to stay in Iraq if a UN resolution was passed. Forty-two percent said they wanted troops to come back even if the UN took control of the country....

---

Newsflash - we're all going to die. All this has done is throw a few more variables into what we think is the timetable we've set.

And I say that w/12 nuke plants w/in a 90 mile radius.

If you won't believe me, pay attention in Britain, via EURSOC:

Now here's a surprise. A leading British professor says that his colleagues' hostility to the security forces is damaging the war on terror.

Anthony Glees of Brunel University claims that political correctness prevents academics from attacking Islamic fundamentalism or even criticising students who demand the destruction of western civilisation.

The Guardian reports Glees' warning that "The extent to which radical Islamic ideas are brewing in UK universities will 'come as shock' to people in years to come."

Moreover, academics' hatred of America and opposition to interventionism in foreign affairs hamper the government's attempts to tackle the problem of international terrorism.

Glees claims that academic culture has been unable to escape a mindset formed in the 1960s, when opposition to the Vietnam war was organised in Britain's universities. Suspicion of American and British motives continued throughout the following decades: Tenured academics were among Britain's few remaining apologists for communism as late as the early 1990s.

According to Glees, some academics took their affection for communism further still: He famously claimed that many British academics were in the pay of East Germany's notorious Stasi secret police.

OUCH:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FD03Aa02.html

"In defense of the Stars and Stripes
Anti-Americanism by Jean-Francois Revel, French-English translation by Diarmid Cammell

...Therein lies another exquisite irony: the costs of anti-Americanism will be borne not by Americans, but by others. And their numbers are vast: Cubans, North Koreans, Zimbabweans, and countless others suffer and starve under their respective tyrannies because the democratic world's chattering classes, obsessed with denouncing the United States, can't be bothered with holding their criminal regimes to account. Meanwhile, in Iraq, fascist rabble, with no discernible political program save a pledge to kill more Americans, try desperately to extinguish the slightest hope of democracy, economic growth, and stability for that long-suffering land; but the world, instead of helping to beat back the wolves at the door, basks in anti-American schadenfreude. How countless are the political problems, cultural pathologies, and humanitarian disasters that fester unnoticed, all over the globe, as the anti-American cult, wallowing in ecstatic bigotry, desperately scrutinizes every utterance of the Bush administration for new critical fodder....

"We are in the very, very early stages of WWIV."

You know something Sandy?

I think you are right.

Depressing, Mark, isn't it? It's right there in front of their faces, shouting look at me, look at me, and they refuse to look.

Because they've seen it before and know what's coming?

What ticks me off is we're the ones who aren't supposed to know history.

Sandy P:
From the quote you quoted "And their numbers are vast: Cubans, North Koreans, Zimbabweans, and countless others suffer and starve under their respective tyrannies because the democratic world's chattering classes, obsessed with denouncing the United States, can't be bothered with holding their criminal regimes to account."

Oh, Cuba, the horrible tyranny. I visisted Cuba last summer. Calling it a tyranny is ridiculous. I travelled the country for 14 days, talked with various people and so forth.

Before you come up with the idiotic and obvious objection that "but, you didn't see what they didn't want you to see" .. actually - you are free to travel where you want on Cuba (except military restricted areas, but that is no different from any other countries). You are free to talk to whomever you want. And so forth.

Heh, one of the almost 'official' news-channels on Cuba is CNN for christ sake.

When it comes to hunger - yes - Cuba had some really, REALLY bad years during the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union. They had rebuilt themselves impressively when I was there in 2003.

The article you refer to seems to imply that the cubans "suffer". The only things people talked about when they said castro had grown harder during the last years - was that prostitution had been forbidden (!) If this is the worst suffering they have to endure, then, well. :-)

The article you refer to also seems to imply that cubans "starve". Yeah right. "Pesos-food" is very cheap, even for cubans, and they've got pretty large rations of _reallyreally_ cheap foodstuffs.

I'm not saying that Cuba is perfect. They're rather poor compared to for example norway and the prices for 'western' stuff is pretty steep. On the other hands, Cubans are quite free to speak their mind and do what they want.

Cuba needs economic reform. That reform shouldn't happen by military intervention. Their economy is far better than other parts of south americas.

Bring the boys back home and send them back with blue berets on their heads.Sandy, you semm like an apocalyptic who is scared of dying. I share your concerns about the future, but see internal European problems common with the ones Yugoslavia had in the 90's as a bigger threat than international terrorism,although they may go hand in hand. The sad thing is that the former leader of Yoguslavia is now on trial for crimes against humanity.This is like a bad omen for what's to come, if you look at Kosovo and it's history it's scary reading.

The worst part of European history is in front of us.

We can create a new sect together Sandy... THE SCARED APOCALYPTICS MOVEMENT.

Me, scared of dying? Came to terms w/that on 10/5/01. We're all going to die, just a few more variables. Was raised practical. Determined in my teens if I had to go by nuke or cancer, would prefer nuke - it's over fast.

Makes me sad that you guys confirmed what I've suspected for years. Just confirms your (Europe's) history. Makes me sad that millions will die because Europe's too blind to see what's really in front of them because they think we're the problem.

But it's going to be OK in the end.

How about the sad movement - and speaking of the UN - isn't that trial going well. And they want the female who's had a hand in prosecuting him involved w/Saddam's trial?

When will Europe never learn to trust the UN?

They need a minimum reformation. I prefer getting rid of them and starting over. Send all the fat cats packing back home, live of the money they've leeched from US, and never darken another doorway again.

Cuba:

How much money do you think ex-pat Cubans have sent there over the years?

"Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face, there will be a well-heeled Western liberal to explain that the face, does. after all, have free health care and 100% literacy."

Why don't you do a little research on the American Library Assoc. and it's support of thugs?

Castro's worth 9 figures. Why? How come he's not spending it on his people, now where have I heard that before????

Hate to break the news to you Sparky, but they were better off under the previous "administration."

Geez, even a lefty admitted it in an article. Didn't save it, tho.

When he goes, we'll see who was right. I think he was very, very bad. However, since he's a shining example of the left, no matter what he's done, it won't matter.

Because, you see, it just hasn't been done right, yet.

Found this over at Roger Simon's place:

Thinking about this over the past few years, and living for a period of time in a Muslim nation, has led me to a conclusion I do not lightly state.

What is actually at stake here runs beyond individual lives. It runs beyond what we see now, too. It actually runs in to areas we in the West are long, long unfamiliar with. We had the penchant for religious war 'to the limit' burned out of our civilisation during the Thirty Years War (1618-1648). The cost was truly appalling - read up on that conflict, especially the 'broken-backed' phase, if you know little about it.

The Islamic world has not had the will or desire for religious war ameliorated by such an experience.

What we are fighting for, here, is everything the Enlightenment gave us. Brace for a very long conflict, perhaps a century of it. These are the very earliest days. The main campaign will be in Europe, starting in 20-30 years, when demographic change leads to large, radicalised Islamic sectors of the population of European nations. The big, bloody religious wars will happen there.

Not a particularly nice future, and I do hope I am wrong.

MarkL
Canberra

---

Ball's going to be in your court in the blink of an eye, what are you going to do?

"We are in the very, very early stages of WWIV. Sometimes I think down the road, the West's great works of art and the people who want to come to the US will to preserve what we once were and make the stand. And we'll make room."

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21&start=44

"If we put this in terms of World War II, we are now sometime around 1937. In the 1930s, the world failed to do what it needed to do to head off a world war. Appeasement never works."

Very true. I hope you guys still have some greencards left. I'm not sure Europe will be completely destroyed, but it will definitely pay a price in blood for its cowardice.

Welcome aboard, Ali.

Some should visit faithandfreedom.org.

Might get a different perspectives on things.

Isn't that one of the websites for ex-muslims? Pardon me, I am assuming by your name. Don't mean to cause offense.

--

BTW, from Arab News:

...If it takes two to tango, we might assume that ignorance needs a partner to be effective. The people ruled by such leaders are equally ignorant and have been purposefully kept that way for decades. The atrocity committed in Iraq with the unseemly dragging of the charred corpses was an extension of something historically entrenched in Iraq. Every single deposed leader since independence, including the king, had suffered this dragging fate. No one seems to mention this. More importantly, no one mentions the fact that the bloodiest of those leaders escaped this fate only because the Americans got their hands on him first.

For a people “without history”, “politically naïve”, and other epithets thrown their way, the Americans have one thing solidly on their side: Decency. I’d exchange this historical freshness for anything solidly “historical” any day.

The reality is staring us in the face: Though military boots are heavy no matter what the context is, we are not dealing with Attila nor are we in the realm of Augustus Caesar. Not a single occupying army has ever declared soon after its victory the date of its departure. The Americans have. Just for the record, the Crusaders stayed for 200 years, the Mongols for nearly a century, and the Ottomans hung on for almost 500 years.

Sandy P, yes, that is one of the websites by ex-muslims. There are several of them these days. Some of the ones I frequent are :

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

http://www.secularislam.org/

http://www.middleastwomen.org/

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

http://www.homa.org/

http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/home.htm

I would also recommend http://www.answering-islam.org/ . It is a Christain website, but excellent researched.

Thank you, Ali, I'll bookmark and if I have a chance to pass along, I'll do so.

If Bondevik and Petersen think they are reducing the threat of terrorist attack by withdrawing troops from Iraq, they are mistaken.

Notice that terrorist activity is continuing in Spain after the back-down? Notice how the May 2003 attacks in Riyadh happened after America declared announced it would be withdrawing from Saudi Arabia? Notice also that al-Qaeda and its satellites are strongest and boldest in Russia and the former Soviet Republics - and in Chechnya and Afghanistan.

Al-Qaeda is following a plan formulated in Afghanistan. They believe that by conducting a 'correct' jihad in Afghanistan, they not only threw out the Soviets, but single-handedly destroyed the Soviet system. They are very explicit in describing this as the primary lesson from the Afghan war, and constantly talk about "the end of the myth of the superpower".

The idea is that the superpower withdraws, its client states collapse (eg the Najib[ullah] regime in Afghanistan, the Saudis, etc), and the 'superpower' (which is seen as America and the West in toto) collapses as a system.

Al-Qaeda interprets weaknesses such as the fall of Aznar, the withdrawal of troops from Saudi Arabia etc as potential first signs of collapse, and they attempt to 'follow through'. They were right - Spain was the weak link, the first domino. Having confirmed their theory, they will repeat the action - whether in Spain or other 'weak dominos'.

Naturally, I do not believe in al-Qaeda's overall theory; I do not believe the US-Western liberal-democratic-capitalist system will collapse. However, in isolation some aspects of the theory are disconcertingly plausible, as demonstrated by the Spanish election result.

Trevor,

Naturally? I'm not sure that I agree that the survival of the "US-Western liberal-democratic- capitalist system" is a forgone conclusion (That's not a comment on its desirability or virtues).

I think most of the readers here would agree that there's a train of thought in Europe which sees the US as the enemy and that would rather appease than deal with fundamental problems. If that train continues then eventually Islamism will overrun Europe just as the Germans did in WWII. And I think that it's a real possibility that, in a generation or so, classical liberalism will disappear from Western Europe.

Ali Dashti:

Thanks for those interesting links. It's good to see that atheists of Muslim origin are speaking out (though I'm not making any assumptions about your inclinations).

I, myself, was baptised a Lutheran. As a teenager, I received a Bible as a present at my Confirmation.

After reading it from cover to cover, I became an atheist. Been so ever since.

Markku Nordstrom, I'm not sure whether I believe there is a God. But after studying the Koran, I'm pretty sure there is a devil.......

I'm sure most of you have seen it from LGF, but I re-post this just in case:

http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_detail.asp?NewsID=5420

EXCLUSIVE - AL-QA’IDA: ISLAMIC STATE WILL CONTROL THE WORLD

The key ideologist of Al-Qa’ida, Lewis ‘Atiyyatullah (a pseudonym), has published an article in the Global Islamic Media Internet forum, in which he reveals Al-Qa’ida’s perception of the international balance of power at present and in the future. ‘Atiyyatullah sees the future very clearly: the balance of power will change; the international system built-up by the West since the Treaty of Westphalia will collapse; and a new international system will rise under the leadership of a mighty Islamic state. And all of that will occur within a few years -- maybe a few decades.

‘Atiyyatullah finds it difficult to understand how it is that the West has not yet admitted its defeat. His explanation and analysis is as follows: The West suffers from a grave problem. This problem originates from its long-time superiority in many domains including army, politics, intelligence, and economics. This superiority, says ‘Atiyyatullah, made the West think all the rest were inferior, stupid. That is why the West is now suffering from cultural and strategic confusion. That is also why it cannot admit to its defeat, and persists in seeing it as a mere security problem, which can be solved by international cooperation.

The West will eventually realize its mistake, but it will be to late, says the ideologist. “The West will not understand that its dominance is effectively defeated, until the U.S. will suffer a second attack.” Only then will the Muslim people also understand that they have the capability to win over the West, says ‘Atiyyatullah.

And with such enemies, Al-Qa’da’s principal ideologist anticipates no major obstacles in the way of the organization to achieving its strategic aims: breaking the existing world order, uprooting Western dominance in the world and bringing the Muslim world to its natural position as the world’s leading power.

Trackback URL: /cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/653

Solomonia: Norway to leave Iraq?, April 7, 2004 07:03 PM

So says Bjørn Stærk, and he's none-too happy about it. Bjørn Stærk blog - Norway to leave Iraq after all...

c0llision.org: Norway to pull troops from Iraq, April 8, 2004 01:09 AM

The headline says it all, but Jan says it best: "Hey, al-Qaeda, we leave of our own free will even before you bomb us." More on Bjorn's blog, too (with a link to the article in Norwegian - I'll have...