[This is the second of two texts by Shabana Rehman, an opening speech at the 2004 Bergen International Festival, translated with permission from the original Norwegian at document.no. The first is here. -bs]

The Migration of the Heart

Opening speech by Shabana Rehman at the 2004 Bergen International Festival

Your Majesties and honored guests!

Since the dawn of mankind, we humans have moved from country to country, from continent to continent. We are movement, through the freedom of our thoughts, but also our own feet. It is natural for us to move, whether you're a Gypsi living in the heart of Europe, a Shaman in Siberia, the leader of a multinational company in New York, a master of Indian dance in Mumbay, or Herman Friele [mayor of Bergen] buying a morning outfit in Oslo. Movement is our nature.

But we also have our roots. Our heritage. Our pride, our faith, our customs, the community we belong to. Roots are important to us. Our roots tell us who we are, where in our dreams we long to return. Our roots are where we feel at home, and where our ancestors belonged. Roots are the key to our individual worth.

But when people value their roots too much, they stagnate. My father died in 1996. He was only 52. There was nothing unusual about his death. But there was about his final wish. He asked to be buried where his children, the next generation, lived, and not in the country of his ancestors. This is an unusual choice for people in his generation of immigrants. A proud Pakistani, buried in Norwegian soil. As I watched his coffin being lowered into the earth, a truth struck me with a force I could not escape. It was like being confronted with an Icelandic vulcano.

For there, by my father's grave, I saw no roots. For a person who takes for granted the community one belongs to, to stand there and see no roots it was like time stood still. By my father's grave I saw something different. I saw a dream of freedom. Who then was I, where do I belong, if this was my father's goodbye? Last week the answer came to me in form of a miracle: I became the aunt of a little princess. When I looked into her eyes for the very first time, I saw neither a Norwegian nor a Pakistani, a Muslim nor a Christian. I saw a free human being. She was also born with extra large feet. That is good. She'll need them. That generation is going to make new history, for they represent the migration of the heart.

It is a force of freedom no differences can stop, and no roots can bind. That was what my father's last request was all about. He lived for the next generation. When he was alive he could never bring himself to tell us. But his grave said it for him. We owe our freedom, our dignity, to our ancestors. But we were never meant to be with the dead. We must be with the living. And with those who have yet to be born.

My father had a dream: To live in a country where he could escape the hell of poverty, where you do not measure a person's dignity by where or as who you are born. Most people believe in roots, in differences, in categories. By my father's grave I could find no roots. He was one of many parents who throughout their lives had fought to give their children a more dignified life than he himself had been offered. There we stood, before his gravem and watched as nationality, religion, ethnicity and roots were buried, in a country that he was neither born in nor felt at home in. And yet it became a powerful symbol to us, his descendants. By my father's grave I saw no roots. I saw only a dream, a dream of the emmigration of the heart, and the immigration of freedom. I saw a dream of freedom, and the price he paid for it. The migration of the heart is the dream of freedom. That is my message to you today.

But the migration of the heart does not take place without conflicts, without battle, without dancing, without screams, without singing, drama, color and passion.

That is why we must sing, must dance, play and live. We must dream. That is what our dreams are worth - they can't be measured except by the price of freedom. Enjoy every second of it, and pass it on. Congratulations with the opening of the festival - congratulations with the beginning of life!

Asslam-O-Alaikum!Shabana claims in her sppech: "But when people value their roots too much, they stagnate. My father died in 1996. He was only 52. There was nothing unusual about his death." Unfortunately, she is lying here. I know her family well. Her father didn't die because of some kind of stagnation. He died so early because he was an alcoholic. Shabana should try to keep the record straight. At some other place she claims that she posed almost naked for Dagsbladet's Sunday Magagzine with the consent and support of her family. This is also not correct because her elder sister who happens to be the wife of my closer friend phoned after her pictures were published and told him that she was never informed by her about the nature of the pictures. She told to her family that it was an ordinary interview. Her family thus disoociated themselves with Shaban's interview.

Are my comments "personal attack" on Shabana Rehman? I don't think they are because she herself brought her biographical account up for discussion.

Salaam alaykum Nadeem
tum kya seh ho!

If you know her family well, do you not think it is sort of treacherous to say the least to speak ill of the dead? If her father indeed was an alcoholic why announce it to the world...what kind of daughter would she be if she did not out of respect or at least out of politeness and decorum refrain from speaking ill of her late father?

Would you say that Islam teaches the daughter to denounce the father - a mere mortal full of imperfection...as mortals like you dear Sir ...are wont to be?

Regarding the foto session with Dagsbladet Magazine ( now naked is a relative term, did you mean she was fotographed without wearing a dopetta or maybe her burqa?...to some muslims a woman with head or faced uncovered is considered 'naked' and sufficient to excite the based animal passion in a (muslim) man - weak creature that he be :)....)why even bring this matter up especially if her sister is the wife of your closest friend? Hmmm with friends like you who would need an enemy ...i wonder ;).

I find your report rather treacherous and am convinced it is an attempt to besmirch the good name of a most lively, successful and beautiful person who has freed herself of the shakles of retrograde customs and religion and is now able to fully realize her full potential -- thanks to the free society in which she now lives - yes a society not free from imperfections but certainly one step closer to a utopia on earth than the village you hail from as reflected in the mentality of your post LOL.

Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
Sufi-Buddhist Mystic

الأخت عائشة نيانيابونيكا كيم

자매 김... 이슬람교도 불교 신비주의자

Waalikum Aslam!

Mein thik hoon, do’a he ap ki

I don’t think I was “sort of treacherous” in any way. Instead, I tried to defend a man who was left defenseless by his own daughter. For Shabana claimed that her father died because of “stagnation”, and to speak so about your father is not to speak nice of the dead. I don’t think it is difficult to understand for anyone that a person who dies of the kind of stagnation she refers to was really a psychologically suffering. In other words, Shabana says that her father was psychologically ill. Should someone not have defended him, especially when he is not among us to defend him? This is why I think I am quite justified in saying what I have said. But I can also be mistaken. If you think after my explanation you still find me wrong, let me know. You may like to say that an alcoholic is also a person with psychological disturbance. May be, but it can also be just a bad habit. And this is why I find the allegation of alcoholism a defense rather than an insult to the man who is definitely like my own father.

Besides, Shabana is the daughter and she can say whatever she wants to about her father in private meetings. But when it comes to her attempt to make a case in a public meeting by attributing fabricated attributes to him, anyone can correct her. If you read her speech through once again as it stands her, you would understand what I mean. Just logically analyze her argument and you will find out how she moves from her father’s story to her desired conclusions.

If you combine the way she used her father to build her case with her claim that her family supported her act of posing naked for Dagsbadet, we may come to this understanding that she uses her family as a mean to her aims and ambitions. And no sensible person would like this. This is right that her family is economically dependent on her in so many ways, from the running of her family small restaurant to her brother’s job in Norwegian Foreign Ministry. But we cannot appreciate her exploiting her own family. I have a complete understanding of why she does so. I am totally sympathetic to her. But this is another story.

As far as the term “naked” is concerned, I must admit that it is really relative. But when you see from my point of view it is not relative; rather, it is objective. However, it is not that relative as you thought I would take it to be. Shabana pose naked, for she painted Norwegian flag on her body and this is how she was photographed. For your information, a woman without duppetta is not considered naked. It is Pakistan and not Iran. If you ever happen to visit Pakistan you will find millions of women walking around without duppetta. Some couple of thousand also wear the jeans, which many of us do not appreciate much, but we have no intention to impose a ban on them. Indeed, tight jeans around one’s tight, nicely curved hips and a shirt making one’s boobs so prominent make many of us stimulated. But we prefer to control our instincts, which we don’t deem as “ based passion”. We are as good at enjoying sex as anyone else, though we let the love come first. Wash-and-go type sex is pretty less popular down here. To talk about my friend and his wife, she is my sister and she will be as far she is my friend’s wife. I become blind if I ever even think of insulting her some way. I am always ready to give away my life for my friends.

The last thing, a Sufi-Mystic-Buddhist should have a bit more patience than you have exhibited here. Anger is man’s worst enemy.

Nadeem Ahmad

Asslam-O-alaikum,

kim sook-im

Yes I was the one who was mistaken. Shabana really never meant that her father died of "stagnation". Instead, she meant that he didn't. Now, I feel really bad about having called him an alcoholic. I talked about the patience in my last comments. Now I have to say myself "Haste makes waste". You were right at this point. I am sorry, really I'm.

However, the rest of what I said is not effected by this - only if you don't employ the epistemological argument that if one can be erroneous once what is the gurantee one would not be the next time.

With Regards

salaam alaykum wa rahamatullah wa barakatuh

Hello Nadeem,

I'm sure Ms. Rehman would say: to err is human , to forgive is divine ;) joyful creature with a heart of gold that she be .

Your generous and reconciliatory viewpoints are quite uncommon for a practitioner of Issssslam. Bit being well travelled and educated and being exposed to so many other cultures may have tempered your world view unlike other members of your homeland who cling to a narrow interpretation of the ahl-sSunnah wa jamaah.

As i write this my good friends Zainab ( from pakistan) and Joleh ( from Iran ) are musing about whether you are even representative of the majority Isssslam as they both know Islamites to be !!! ( mind you they have suffered brutal experiences in their respective home countries to know that the commentaries you make sound nice on paper but ring hollow in truth !).

In another thread, a french national who goes by Sensi accuses me of being isolated and not having travelled as much as he has through all of middle east etc. ...and that he 'knows' muslims well by virtue of his travel. To which i say phoooey...i too have travelled extensively and even further than he has all through europe and asia too. I was in india and pakistan before ( my good friend Zainab is from Rawalpindi).

In india and pakistan there is much influence of hinduism on islam and vice versa to an extent. In india there are of course interreligious and communal strife not only between muslims and hindus, but now also between the sikhs and the majority hindus which complicates matters....Why -Urdu is merely a variant form of hindi written with an adapted arabic script instead of the devanagari and replete with rich import of arabic, persian etc. vocabulary. Sad , that the people of Bharaat should be pitted one against the other on religious grounds ( somewhat akin to north and south korea - on ideological grounds..the Jucheh ideology of the nefarious Kim Jong-Il and his predecessor Kim il-Soong is really another form of fascism . Likewise, Issslam is really a religious front for a theo-fascist ideology - something i have constantly maintained .

Here is an interesting article about an alternative view of the futures of south asia which an erudite person like you may wish to peruse !

----->http://www.metafuture.org/Articles/alternative_view_futures_SouthAsia.htm

....the author opines that Colonial history has produced an overarching paradigm that even the interpreters of the hadith and Vedanta must relinquish their authority to.....!

Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
أخت عائشة نيانيابونيكا كيم
危險宗教崇拜專家

Mano pubanggama Dharma
Mano Setta Mano Maya

Mind perceives , mind deceives
Mind is supreme, mind is illusion

...to which end you may wish to review this article on Islam and memetics - i am offering an unabashed buddhist view point of Islam ;)

Nadeem,

sorry....forgot the link:

-----> http://www.geocities.com/scimah/memes.htm

Sister Ayesha N. Kim

Asslam-o-Alaikum!

Ref: kim sook-im | 2005-06-02 13:09 |

I am not a formal representative of Muslims but what I wrote here is based on my personal experience of being a member of Muslim community, but as a bit attentive member. Majority of the Muslims are moderates, mainly concentrating on bread and milk for their children, worshipping their God with varying degrees of perfection, and still being a Muslim. Diversity is a reality though Islam still defines their lives. As far as Islamists are concerned, they represent a political reaction to imperialism, old and new. New is perceived as coming from USA. Even these people do not represent the majority which is traditionalist – perhaps not as progressive as me but certainly they accommodate themselves to the new social realities. This majority moves only when things go to extremes. Iranian Islamic Revolution was just such reaction, which was a protest to the extremely liberalization of Iranian society. Iranians wished then to return to the normal state of affairs, a moderate one. But what they got was an over-exaggerated conservativism of the theocracy. As a protest to it Iranians are now ready for another attempt to find a medium between two extremes. Unfortunately, the moderates in a Muslim society don’t get your attention. You look out either liberals who you (the western man, perhaps you are not as you refer all the time to Buddhism) can use for the promotion of your own agenda, or islamists who can be your enemies, ignoring what constitute the majority and thus missing any real opportunity of a productive communication with Muslim community.

One of the major strategy for attacking Islam is based on what one calls in logic as Straw-Man-Fallacy. For example, by using the violent activities of the far-left (anarchists) during 60’s and 70s, you give an impression that the leftist politics promotes violence, which is not right. Anarchists are just a small group in the left and by defeating them you cannot claim for having defeated the whole left. This sort of argumentation is fallacious and is employed by Shabana Rehman and many her likes. From a reference to the brutality and violence of al-Qaida they move to “you see, Islam encourages violence”. Logically such argumentation is invalid. So, by studying some islamist doctrines try not to make judgements about the majority of the Muslim population.

The main reason for the conflict between Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims, which occasionally turns into a blood bath, is the small numbers of extremists on both sides. Much of the blame has to be given to Hindu Rahtria Sevik Singh and even Bhartia Janta Party. Urdu is not merely a variant of Hindi. The word “urdu” means army. Urdu language was developed around 850 years ago as the language of Muslim army that conquered India. In fact, a common language was required because the soldiers spoke different languages- from Arabic and Persian to Turkish and central Asian languages. In many ways Hindi is a variant of Urdu.

I have heard this talk of what Hindus call Akhand Bharat. It is one of those dreams that have perverted the world politics. It is like the dream of Hitler who wanted one strong, united Europe. It is the dream of Israelis who want Great Israel, including Jordan and Egypt and even parts of Africa. It is just a longing for the great past. I didn’t read this article but I know that the writer would try to convince us that the solution of all the problems is One Great Bharat. Sorry it is too late. Pakistanis have no intention to join the Great Bharat.

Ref: kim sook-im | 2005-06-02 13:10 |

Article on -----> http://www.geocities.com/scimah/memes.htm is interesting. I had never heard of meme theory. But as I understand if meme theory is correct, then much that constitutes the foundations of Buddhism, western mode of life, science and technology and so on is perverted by memity. Even memes appear at work in your arguments. Let me read through some material on this topic and then we may discuss it.

Salaams Nadeem,

....I have heard this talk of what Hindus call Akhand Bharat. It is one of those dreams that have perverted the world politics. It is like the dream of Hitler who wanted one strong, united Europe. It is the dream of Israelis who want Great Israel, including Jordan and Egypt and even parts of Africa.....

( well, you hit the nail on the head...this is exactly the ideology of Islam - which at its core is theofascism -- islamists have grand design for a one world Ummah and will not stop till they have all the kuffaars obliterated...it says so in their manifesto - the Quran --which by the way also has a blue-print for practising terror on unbelievers ! penny for your thoughts LOL )

Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
non proselytizing buddhist kuntry girl

Asslam-O-Alaikum!

The concept of ummah doesn’t have any geographical boundaries. It is just a community, like many other communities of Christians, Jews, liberals, Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhists spreading throughout the world. A Muslim who is an American or Norwegian citizen is as much member of Muslim ummah as much anyone here in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Thus, the Muslim ummah goes across the geographical boundaries, still respecting these very boundaries. Indeed, the organizations like al-Qaida may have talked about, borrowing your words, “obliterating all the infidels”, but they are not the representative of the mainstream Islam. Muslims ruled the whole of India but they didn’t obliterate Hindus and Buddhists. In those parts of Europe where Muslims ruled Christians and Jews were allowed to live. Even the infidels were participant in the administrations. And now when Muslims don’t enjoy that kind of power, how can they think of doing so. By the way, where does it say in Quran – some reference please then we can try to interpret it.

Another concept is “khilafat” which is more like a political concept because it is used to define a certain kind of political system.

Anyway, Bhartia Janta Party has long been advocating the idea of Akhand Bharat but only yesterday its president L. K. Adwani, who is visiting Pakistan in these days, rejected the concept of Akhand (United) Bharat. He said, “ Pakistan and India are two independent countries and their merger is far from reality.” Perhaps, now only extremist groups like Rashtria Sevik Singh would like to cling to this concept. I hope this “non-proselytizing Buddhist kuntry girl” doesn’t join RSS.

The concept of ummah doesn’t have any geographical boundaries. It is just a community, like many other communities of Christians, Jews, liberals, Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhists spreading throughout the world............................( this is where you are grossly mistaken, islam is always about territory, territory, territory,...to pretend that islam is some fuzzy buddhist concept of universality is wholly incorrect. Islam has always been about expansionism and acquisition of domain for Allah)

A Muslim who is an American or Norwegian citizen is as much member of Muslim ummah as much anyone here in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Thus, the Muslim ummah goes across the geographical boundaries, still respecting these very boundaries............( only when they are in the minority, but the seed of hegemony is inculcated into all muslims. They abide their time - if you are a pious muslim you have no choice but to follow the cultic imposition which is subversion of the host country by hook or by crook and acquisition of new domain for Terra Allahaica)

Indeed, the organizations like al-Qaida may have talked about, borrowing your words, “obliterating all the infidels”, but they are not the representative of the mainstream Islam............(strange that a professed muslim would say such things - i can vouchsafe for you that over 80% or 90% of your co-religionist in mainstream islam would consider you moonafiq to some degree if you espouse such views LOL )

Muslims ruled the whole of India but they didn’t obliterate Hindus and Buddhists........ ( they did not obliterate the hindus only be reason of sheer number, so they had to modify their draconian intends....they did obliterate the more peaceable buddhists...even to the point of adding insult to injury ,...they would destroy the bamiyan buddha statues which is a national treasure and part of the history and culture of afghanistan.LET US ALSO NOT FORGET THE SUFFERINGS AND OPPRESSION AND SLAUGHTER OF THE PEACEABLE BUDDHISTS IN THE CHITTAGOING AREA OF BANGLADESH PERPETRATED BY MAINSTREAM ISLAM IN THAT MOHAMMADINIZED LAND OF BANGLADESH

In those parts of Europe where Muslims ruled Christians and Jews were allowed to live.......... ( yes barely allowed to live emphasis 'allowed to live'...hello how benign can that be)

given that Even the infidels were participant in the administrations. And now when Muslims don’t enjoy that kind of power, how can they think of doing so. By the way, where does it say in Quran – some reference please then we can try to interpret it.
(o.k. see Skeptic's Annotated Quran
The Skeptic's Annotated Koran contains the entire text of the Koran presented
from a skeptic's point of view. Verses are highlighted using a color coding ...
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/ - 76k - Jun 5, 2005 .

Also go to WWW.FAITHFREEDOM.ORG and on the home page click under QURAN - Source of hate,violence and islamic terrorism to read the essence of the quranic text.)

Another concept is “khilafat” which is more like a political concept because it is used to define a certain kind of political system. ( islam is different than other religions, it is everything, culture , politics, military,etc..every aspect of the muslims being is rolled into one big theo-fascist ideology- mainstream islam yearns for the Khilafah....so to characterize it as a sort of extremist ideology is misleading)

Anyway, Bhartia Janta Party has long been advocating the idea of Akhand Bharat but only yesterday its president L. K. Adwani, who is visiting Pakistan in these days, rejected the concept of Akhand (United) Bharat. He said, “ Pakistan and India are two independent countries and their merger is far from reality.” Perhaps, now only extremist groups like Rashtria Sevik Singh would like to cling to this concept. I hope this “non-proselytizing Buddhist kuntry girl” doesn’t join RSS. ( ancient vedic culture and relligion affected even current day kingdom of arabia , and the whole of middle east.In fact Vedic culture is the source and fountainhead of all major civilization....why even the word Ibrahim akin to the hebrew Abraham is derived from ancient vedic sources APPA BRAHMAN ( FATHER GOD ) which evolve into ABBA BRAHM--> ABB- BRAHM---.> ABRAHAM---> ibrahim ( in the arabic). The preIslamic arabia was a polytheist society worshipping the TriMurti ( trinity) of Brahma/creator, Vishno/preserver and Shiva/destroyer...the 3 primordial forces of the Cosmos. The Ka'aba is a corruption of the Vedic - Garba Graha - sanctum sanctorum/holy of holies, and is build in the form of the BrahmaChakra with the Kaaba housing the ShivaLingam which is the black stone that the hajj pilgrims go to kiss ( a form of idolatry in itself LOL )

By the way the parents of the prophet Mohammad pbuh were hindu polytheist . Even the name mohammad derives from the sanskritic. The preIslamic arabians were hindu polytheists and the prophet's parents reverred Lord MahaDev(lORD MAHA-DEVA, lord Shiva)..hence their son were named Mohammad which derived as thus:

MAHA MAHADEV(A) -->MAHA MAHADEV--> MOHAMAHDV-->

-----> MOHAMAD---.MOHAMMAD OR MUHAMMAD WHERE THE BASIC ELEMENTS M-H-M-H-D PERSISTS AS IN THE ARABIC " محمد "

ALSO CHECK OUT THESE LINKS WHICH EXPLAIN IN MORE DETAIL THE VEDIC INFLUENCE ON ARABIA AND ISLAM IN GENERAL:

VWH Middle East - It was Islam that extinguished the light of knowledge in Vedic Arabia. ... To find a spiritual culture with such unmistakable Vedic influence in Israel was ...
http://www.salagram.net/VWHMid-East.html

Sword of Truth Archives -- Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 1 - Since time immemorial proponents of the Vedic culture used to breed ... motherland long before the damaging influence of Islam is corroborated by the ...
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/vpopia1.html

World details - Also, fasts are always associated with Vedic worship, and Islam has retained that fasting ... The Vedic influence in Eastern Asia is very well known. ...
http://www.salagram.net/VWH-World.html
[More results from www.salagram.net]

Christianity and the Vedic Influence Within It - ... is the Arabic spelling of the name Jesus, and the name commonly used in Islam. ... More connections between Christianity and the Vedic culture can be ...
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christianity_and_the_vedic_teachings_within_it.htm
( THIS ONE IS GONNA UPSET THE CHRISTIANS TO NO END ....TEE HEEEEEEEE)

Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory - In fact, he has shown how the South Arabic, Old Aramic, and the ancient Indian Brahmi ... Further evidence showing the Vedic influence on the region of ...
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/death_of_the_aryan_invasion_theory.htm ( THIS discusses the Vedic civilization as the civilization before civilization and how it spreads world wide...yes pre-dating islam which is merely borrowing from pre existing info --the autor Stephen Knapp states:

......" The point of all this is that even if Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., all keep their own ideology, legends, and traditions, we should realize that all of these legends and conceptions of God and forms of worship ultimately refer to the same Supreme God and lesser demigods, although they may be called by different names according to present day variations in region and culture. In other words, all these doctrines and faiths are simply outgrowths of the original religion and worship of the one Supreme Deity that spread throughout the world many thousands of years ago from the same basic source, and which is now expressed through the many various cultural differences in the world. Therefore, no matter what religion we may consider ourselves, we are all a part of the same family. We are merely another branch of the same tree which can be traced to the original pre-historic roots of spiritual thought that are found in the Vedic culture, the oldest and most developed philosophical and spiritual tradition in the world...."

P.S. by the way regarding your claims that Hindi is a variant of Urdu , you may wish to reconsider that:

here is an excerpt from the link below:"..... "....Urdu is Hindi Khari boli (Delhi Hindi) with Persian and Arabic throw in. Although the language came into existence after 1730 it is only after 1818 did it become a language of expressing thoughts......."

click on link: History of Urdu - This could also explain the influence of Arabic on Urdu. ... In order to rejuvenate them the Islamic influence had to be reinforced. ...
http://www.esamskriti.com/html/history/urduintro.doc

Hope your thesis is going along great..what are you studying? Panjabi?Bengali..bangala boleh?

Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
Temple of Sri Sri MahaDeva Maha Saraswati
印第安女神Saraswati 寺廟

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Asslam-O-Alaikum!

Ref: kim sook-im | 2005-06-07
By definition, every religion is about code of life – that is, it deals with the question how to live a good life individually and as a member of a community. Since the claim of every religion is universal – it addresses every human being – it has nothing to do with geographical expansionism and acquisition. Of course, Muslim conquerors expanded the geographical boundaries of Islamic Empire for the economic or strategic reasons, but Islam cannot be blamed for that. If Muslims are interested in some territory then it is the territory where the Muslims live in majority. Expansionism in Islam is of different nature than you might have suspected. Muslims are asked to spread the message of God by inviting every human being to the way of life revealed by God in Quran.
Taleban and Iranian phenomenon is new in the Islamic world. Otherwise, the lives of the Muslims were not really regulated by the state in the past Muslim countries. Today, we say that in a Muslim country the laws should reflect Islamic essence but not in the strict way as it is done in Iran. Meanwhile, as the culture of the majority population is reflected in the national laws, the culture of the minority is preserved. Now, for example, alcohol is forbidden in Islam and so is our state law, but for Hindus and Christians special permits are issued so that they can buy and consume alcohol. By the way, the opinion of the majority is anyway valued and respected in a democratic country. But the preservation of the rights of the minorities should also be guaranteed. These are two basic principles that we want to stick to here in Pakistan.
I can tell you with full confidence that I will not be called as moonafiq. I try honestly to think the way an ordinary, moderate Muslim thinks and he/she doesn’t think the way al-Qaida thinks. I speak everyday with the ordinary persons – like a labor worker, carpenter, cobbler, taxi-driver, milk man, grocery shop owner, school teacher, house wives, car mechanic, pensioners, police constable, soldier, and so on. I understand Islam in their way, in a moderate way.
The paragraph concerning our discussion about “obliteration” of the conquered group or the minorities. In the modern history, there are three examples of “obliterating” the minorities: (1) Europeans conquering what is now called American continental and obliterating the Indians there (2) Europeans conquering and eliminating Muslims in Spain such that we find few immigrant Muslims there today (3) Jews being obliterated at the hands of Nazis. All three paradigmatic examples are from Europe (secular as well Christian). Muslims cannot be blamed for “obliteration” of the minorities at this scale. To say that Muslims didn’t “obliterate the Hindus only by reason of sheer number” doesn’t make much sense when we see that “sheer number” didn’t save American Indians.
The destruction of Buddha Statue is really sad and regrettable but Taleban don’t represent majority of the Muslims – we have discussed this and I had requested you for making such delicate difference but you perhaps refuse because without this you cannot employ your rhetoric forcefully. Don’t worry; here in Pakistan we have preserved much of Buddha civilization. Come someday to visit Taxila Museum. I must admit that I am ignorant of what happened to THE PEACEABLE BUDDHISTS IN THE CHITTAGOING AREA OF BANGLADESH, but it cannot be “obliteration” that we are here focusing on.
I read through the verses quoted in your referred web sight www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/ - 76k - Jun 5, 2005, perhaps under the category of “atrocities and cruelties”. But before we can discuss briefly the content of these verses and what kind of moral norms they prescribe for us I would like to say that in Islam normative relations are of two types (1) Vertical – between man and God (2) Horizontal - between man and man. Quran prescribes norms for both relationships and the desert for the violation of these norms. The desert for the first kind of violation is in God’s hands while for the latter it is in the hands of society. The latter sorts of verses make the basis for Islamic law and jurisprudence. That unbelievers and the sinners will be doomed, thrown in the hell, will burn for eternity and the believers (and the righteous ones) will flourish in the heaven, expresses the relationship between man and God. God has authority to give reward and punishment of this kind in afterlife or in this life. No human being, even the Muslims can be bearer of this authority. Most of the verses quoted here are about this. While only a couple of verses deal with what Muslims should do with the unbelievers who have been suppressing, attacking and insulting Muslims since they converted to Islam. I choose two verses and both are from sura “Woman”. The first verse is as follows: “Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.” (89) In order to understand this verse we have to put in some context very briefly.” The verse is revealed in Medina where Muslims have been forced to migrate to by Meccan unbelievers and are being even attacked here in Medina as well. Quran is simply encouraging Muslims to stand up and resist against the aggressors and show no naivety. However, in the same sura two verses later the norm is fully laid out in these words: “If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.” (91) Clearly it is a conditional statement – Muslims can battle and kill unbelievers if they don’t offer them peace. In other words, Muslims should aim at peace but if the opponent doesn’t allow the peace prevailing only then the battle against the aggressor is allowed. With anyone who is in peace battle is illegitimate. Every idealized international law about the war today will express the same essence, and will lay out the same kind of rules for war. If Muslims were allowed to worship their God and live a life according to the way shown by Him in Medina, there was no question of war and thus killing. Now, I should ask you where is Quranic reference of “obliterating” the minorities and infidels here that you were supposed to produce. A talk of peace with them clearly indicates that Muslims are encouraged to live with the infidels in co-existence. To your disappointment, the verses quoted here go against your arguments.

I understand these verses this way and there is no other proper way to understand a verse than by placing it in its legitimate context. Unfortunately some Muslims do not interpret Quranic verses this way, bin Laden and other extremist groups being one of them. They ignore the context and take the verse literally. Consequently, the verse becomes unintelligible and meaningless. Therefore, for me such people are insulting God and Quran and are playing in the hands of those who want to distort the message of God, among them are also these skeptics who have isolated Quranic verses to give them the meanings other than they actually have so that they can refer to them in their anti-Islam propaganda. Quran is a book that is written in spoken language. It constitutes a discourse between God and the believers and every discourse has to be understood in the light of its context.

(TO BE CONTINUED)

Part Two: in response to kim sook-im | 2005-06-07

“Islam is different than other religions, it is everything, culture , politics, military,etc.. every aspect of the muslims being is rolled into one big theo-fascist ideology- mainstream islam yearns for the Khilafah....so to characterize it as a sort of extremist ideology is misleading.”

(Fascistic ideologies are Western inventions and Islam has nothing to do with it. Iranian and Taleban phenomena are new in Islam. The lives of Muslims were never regulated by the state. Please: Read Syyed Nasr: Traditional Islam in the Modern World and Syyed Nasr: Sacred and Knowledge) I am sorry that I cannot refer to websites because I like to read books.

Ref: The paragraphs about “THE VEDIC INFLUENCE ON ARABIA AND ISLAM” – In one of my previous “comments” I said that truth is found in every tradition, culture and religion to varying degrees. There have been Prophets for every group of people who revealed truth to them, but as the time passed truth was distorted and corrupted. Everyone was told to worship one God, but because of the persuasion from satan people began to worship idols. So happened with Hindus and many other polytheists. Lastly, came Islam to conclude the message of God and correct what has been corrupted by various groups of people in various ways. This is how things are explained in Islam.

Instead of conflicting your claims about the Vedic influence on Arabia, its nature and extent, (Some historian will do that) I would like to say only this that some of the similarities between Hinduism and Islam shouldn’t be surprising to anyone, for truth is also found, though imperfectly, also in Hinduism. By the way, the parents of Abraham were also polytheists but He rejected polytheism and founded three main religions and the half of the world population is his follower. As far as the linguistic similarities is concerned no one can deny that. People were traveling even in those days for the purpose of trade, and migration is also another factor, so the claim that many words were borrowed from sansikrit is no surprise. Today, the kind of Hindi is spoken has borrowed at least ¼ of its vocabulary from English language. But what has all this to do with Akhand Bharat. Are you trying to build a case for Akhand Bharat on the basis that there was once a great civilization manifested in the form of Bharat? I know you have perhaps nostalgia for the past glory, as the past glory of Roman Empire motivated Hitler and now those behind the idea of European Union. So what should we do? Should we join India to revive those glorious days? You have to answer this question directly, instead of pulling stories from here and there.

Personally, I find myself closer to Indian culture. Sufism in Islam brings Hindu and Muslim culture even closer to each other. But I have no place in any corner of my mind for the idea of Akhand Bharat. I am loyal to Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
“P.S. by the way regarding your claims that Hindi is a variant of Urdu , you may wish to reconsider that:
here is an excerpt from the link below:"..... "....Urdu is Hindi Khari boli (Delhi Hindi) with Persian and Arabic throw in. Although the language came into existence after 1730 it is only after 1818 did it become a language of expressing thoughts......." “

On your recommended website on the history of Urdu it is stated: “ The word Urdu is derived from the Turki word Ordu, which meant “a military camp”. The language as we now know it had not come into existence during this period (1707). Instead it was a product of the dialect used by the Muslims who ruled over Deccan and South India from the 14th century awards”. This dialect didn’t come into existence all at once and besides as the name “Ordu” shows the dialect came into existence in the military camp. But the Muslims military mainly consisted of soldiers from what we call today Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey and Central Asia, who spoke different languages. From their attempts to communicate with each other over a long period came into existence a new dialect. Later on over the centuries, the local Hindi dialects also influenced it. From a military language it had to take some time to turn into a literary language, which actually did happen. No language has more influence on Urdu than Persian. If you have to learn good literary Urdu, Persian can be very useful for that. Most of the metaphors and similes used in Urdu have either Persian or Arabic origin. Our National anthem is also written in Persian beginning with the verse “Pak serzamin shad bad”. To my mind, then, Persian is my grandmother language. Our culture has its roots in Islamic culture and those languages that expressed this culture. The father of my great grandfather was a Hindu and he rejected Hindu culture and opted for Islam and Islamic culture. And my family is proud of his choice. (PS. I was not really much sure of that Hindi was a version of Urdu. My claim mostly concerned the poetry in Hindi movies that seem more like an Urdu dialect. But my claim that Urdu was not a Hindi dialect seems being confirmed by the article you recommended).

Punjabi literature I have studied when I was going my graduation. I wish I could study Bengali as well but for now I am more interested in Western Philosophy.

This is for Nadeem Ahmad....

Have we found the proverbial "moderate Muslim"? Of course, I see that everything depends on "context'" or better, "legitimate context" - whatever that is.

Nadeem, I would really like your help. For almost two months I have been trying to find an honest Muslim who can tell me why anybody should respect a person like Mohammud (or for that matter, people who follow a person like Islam's great prophet - but no luck). Call me Diogenes, if you will.

When I go to Muslim sites and leave posts, they are deleted (well, except for Altmuslim.com). When I debate with Muslims on non-moderated public sites, they ignore me.

Here we go....
Here is a story from a Hadith about what your dear leader did to a captive: www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html (Please read 261).

Cutting off body parts? Heated nails in the eyes? Die of thirst? Sure the guy was a thief, but....

There are other stories but that one has an easy link to a Muslim group at USC. I could have mention the story where dear old Mo has a fire built on a man's chest to get him to talk. Or I could have mentioned that the guy was a major slaver, taking men, women and children and selling them, or taking a captive woman to his bed after killing her family, or the unprovoked raids on caravans, or the hundreds of executions? Its all there in your own histories. And then there is the little girl playing with dolls that Mo takes to his bed. Great, noble person, this man!

So for two months I have been trying to get a Muslim to tell me why oh why anybody should respect a guy like Mohammud. But no luck.

Doesn't the fact that he had special rules for himself tell you something? How can he be an "example" if you aren't permited to do what he did? Why does an "example" have to forbid criticism of his person?

So Nadeen, can you help me? Why should anyone respect this guy? Another obvious question is why should anybody believe or trust a group of people (Muslims!) that not only cannot condemn a slaver, murderer and torturer, but think is is a shinning example of virtue.

Hey... this is a list of my postings on a site I am working on....
http://www.kactuzkid.com/postings.html
Forgive me, but it is still under construction, but I decided that I need to keep track of this issue. Also there is the fact that a well known Muslim writer (Irfan Yusuf, one of those who would not answer my question) accused me of advocating the killing of Muslims, so I decided to save all of them as a record. Unlike Mohammud(kill the infidels wherever you find them) I believe that killing people or advocating murder is serious talk. I also believe that people who kill and torture are scum. What do you think, Nadeen?

If any other true believer in the great prophet of Islam wants to take a shot at this, be my guest. In over 20 postings on this question, the best response from a Muslim was that the issue was "problematic". I was also told by another lady that the guy was a robber and that times were different then. Is that a good answer?

Well, this is old John Aka Kactuz signing off...

Thank you Bjorn for this great site.
Ola Kim - rainha da logica e bom senso - tudo bem? Voce continua otima! Um dos motivos para visitar este site de vez em quando e' para ler seus argumentos. Voce e' um grande "exemplo" para mim.

Whe. Ahmad
I understand these verses this way and there is no other proper way to understand a verse than by placing it in its legitimate context. Unfortunately some Muslims do not interpret Quranic verses this way, bin Laden and other extremist groups being one of them. They ignore the context and take the verse literally.

I like her because it was immage of a free women.I congratulate her for success and i wish her good luck

Ola! John/Kactuz kid,

Great site you've got there:

http://www.kactuzkid.com/postings.html

your klog on marriage to Saudi's should be an eye opener to any western females foolish enuf to enter into matrimony with these kind of 'men'...( oh i grant that you will have exceptions in every culture, but the news have been overwhelmingly negative from all quarters). I have a dear phillipine friend who was married to a Saudi and suffice to say her life of 8 yrs in the kingdom was one of recurrent nitemare. She escaped with the help of some ex-patriates with her husband in hot pursuit. She was able to leave with one son, but the daughter is still trapped in Saudi Arabia....you would think that since she is a citizen of the US of A our diplomatic corp would have some clout in helping our citizens? ...ha ha ha...think again...even the US has become Dhimmi's and kow tow to the intransigencies and gross violations of international norms of decencies in this medieval Fiefdom of Islam, incorp.

Muslims in general like you say are incapable of introspection - theirs is an ethos of culpability of others - be it israel, the evil US of A or the decadent and degenerate europeans ....to whom all the Ali's and Babas of islamdom flee when they wish to find respite from the stifling and stunting choke-hold of Shariah in full swing !

Islamists are fond of accusing everyone else of paganism and idolatry..nothwithstanding the fact that they are the biggest idolaters of all, worshipping a big chunk or black rock in the middle of a dessert, and practising BIBLIOLATRY - practical reverence and worship of an inanimate Book as if it were the verbatim word of God ( for an alternate opinion go to :

http://www.souldevice.org/quran2.htm

( errors in the Quran ! His premise is the Quran is a collection of writings of fallible men..and there are many thorough scientific studies to prove this - nevertheless engaging in a scholarly study of the Quran is dangerous business given the fanatical nature of many of its adherents and the various scholars who engage in this risky enerprise have remained anonymous so far - this glaring fact itself tells us that we are dealing not with a religion but with a very global cult that has the trappings and enhancement of a bona-fide religion which normally would espouse a path of spirituality devoid of violence and hate, both of which are amazingly absent in the Cult of Islam which has to constantly assert itself despite glaring evidence to the contrary LOL !!!!.

.....notice the oft repeated mantra ad nauseum about Islam being the religion of peace, that it is the most beautiful religion on planet earth, that it is a mercy sent to mankind -- mercy ???, mon dieu! :-)

Muito obrigada e tjau !

Raquel Kim de Souza
a sua rainha de bom senso em blogistão

" I like her because it was immage of a free women.I congratulate her for success and i wish her good luck"

Yohoo Shafi/paquistão oops pakistan !

go for it man....finally a pakistani male broad minded enuf to appreciate a comic for who a comic is -- listen Shabana Rehman is a comic..that is what she does she pokes fun at people and herself...islamites have no sense of humor duuuuuuuuuh.

Congratulations on your positive support of Ms. Rehman.

Zubaida Kim
ya-bint-al-Hawa

John/Kactuz kid,

Oi! outra vez,

Your section on prophecy is interesting but check this one out. This 'prediction' is based on several respectable sources ...its from the Hindutva web site:

The predictions sound scary and even plausible, knowing that islamites are such fatalists and impervious to change...they may well force the other 5 billion inhabitants of planet earth to a mutually destructive war. I sure hope this scenario does not play out. I strongly believe in prayer to avert catastrophe - it is a connexion to the supreme Cosmos the ground of all existence , call it God if you wish or the supreme ground of Intelligence / Brahma !

Shape of things to come in Iraq (and the world over)

• The elections are held in Iraq
• Sunni clerics denounce elections
• Voters are killed on election day in Terror attacks
• But election results are announced
• Sunni turnout is less than 20%
• Sunni clerics reject results
• Shia dominated govt is formed
• Sunnis call for US troops to leave
• New Shia dominated govt calls for phased pullout of US forces
• US forces begin a phased pullout
• They re-locate outside the cities in isolated fortified camps
• Terrorists blow off Iraqi parliament, Presidential palace Prime Minister’s residence
• Terrorists assassinate Ministers, Parliamentarians
• A full scale civil war starts between the Sunni dominated insurgents and the new Shia and Kurd Iraqi military
• Iran sends in insurgents to back Shias
• Saudis, Syrians, Egyptians, Kuwaitis, Palestinians send in insurgents to back Sunnis
• Saudis and Kuwaitis call for US action to stop Iran from intensifying the Iraqi civil war
• US seizes the opportunity and bombs Iranian nuke facilities
• Iran tries to crash missiles into Israel and Europe
• Internal rebellion breaks out in Iran
• US special forces start operating inside Iran to topple Mullah regime
• Iranian/Hezbollah forces stage terrorist attacks in Israel and in the West
• US launches an air blitz of Iran followed by a land invasion and sets up a new regime
• The Shah of Iran returns to Iran as a private citizen
• Shia-Hezbollah led terror attacks across the West and Israel intensify
• Israel invades Lebanon to wipe out the Hezbollah threat
• Egypt/Syria threaten Israel with serious consequences.
• Terrorist attacks originating from Gaza intensify in Israel
• Israel warns Syria with military action
• Spectacular mega terror attack in Israel
• Israel declares Syria to be culpable and launches a swift land and air assault on Syria
• Syria appeals for Arab military action to save itself
• Egypt, Jordan and Saudis start military action against Israel
• Israel overruns Jordan to join up with US forces stationed in Iraq
• Israel occupies Damascus
• US forces enter Syria from Syrian-Iraqi border in the North, join up with Israeli military
• After the conquest of Syria, Israel turns on Egypt, annexes Sinai, crosses Suez Canal and threatens Cairo
• Mecca, Medina, Mena, Jiddah taken off the map thru IAF (Israel Air Force) nuke strikes
• Upheaval in the entire Arab world
• Western diplomats and businessmen attacked, kidnapped, beheaded
• Anti-American riots in Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia.
• Musharraf and Yudhyono regimes under tremendous pressure to give up pro-US stance
• Musharraf assassinated by pro-Jihadi elements in Army due to his association with the US. The Jihadis last straw being his helping the Americans in finding Iran's nuke sites as a trade off for letting AQ Khan off the hook. But Mushy's gamble does not pay off, as he loses his job and life.
• Jihadi regime in Pakistan ups hostility with India
• Jihadis succeed in smuggling nuclear devices in the US and exploding them simultaneously
• US army takes over US administration, suspends constitution
• US military regime blockades the UN and declares it persona non-grata
• US enters into emergency war council with Russia and Britain
• The triple alliance starts nuclear bombing military targets across the Islamic world
• Pakistani nukes taken out in first strike
• Pakistan explodes some nuke devices on India
• Indian retaliation wipes off Pakistan off the map – death toll in South Asia is over half a billion
• Widespread Hindu-Muslim riots in India on the lines of the Gujarat riots of 2002. Muslim population decimated, Hindus and Christians also suffer heavy death toll.
• Nuclear campaign launched by the triple alliance intensifies as many cities in the Islamic world are taken off the map to wipe off the air forces.
• Seaports in the Islamic world crippled to decapitate the navies
• Radiation causes second wave of deaths. The toll in secondary deaths more than three billion
• More than half of the fatalities are Muslims.
• Almost the entire population in the Muslim world is decimated.
• China joins war against Islam, wipes off Muslim (Ughir) population in Eastern Turkestan
• Muslims in Europe launch a wave of terror attacks in European capitals
• Conditions in Europe very disturbed in a civil war like situation
• Right wing coups in France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Denmark. The new regimes join the triple alliance
• Widespread anti-Muslim riots in Europe aided by the militaries of those countries and NATO forces
• Domestic military action against Muslims in Europe intensifies as European militaries do combing operations to flush out Muslims
• The post-war Muslim population worldwide now accounts for only one percent of the global population concentrated mostly in Europe
• Military action ends, US, Britain and Russia announce reconstruction plan for the world
• Islam outlawed across the globe
• Residual Muslims worldwide embrace Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism. Judaism
• Humanity enters post-Islamic phase.
This write-up has been compiled based on analysis by Seymour Hersh and information at the following sites; Stratfor.org, Rand.org, Military.com

for more details read up in the following link:

www.hindutva.com

Muito obrigada
Namaste
नमस्ते & धन्यवाद

Sister Prasad Meenachi Bhagavatam

जहां धुआं है, वहां आग भी है.

आलोक आप बिल्कुल सहि क़ह रहें हैं। देबाशीष बहुमुखी प्रतीभा के धनी है। और मुझे भी कुछ अच्छे काम करने के लिये प्रेरीत करते रहते हैं। जीसका उदाहरण चिठ्ठा विश्व मे मेरा योगदान है।

@ kim sook-im | 2005-08-31 17:55 | Link

Ahah, nice to see you still unchanged, muslims are still your unhealthy obsession, yet you seem not to know even one by yourself. lol.

Someday i will welcome you in France and show you all my friends that are muslims, they dislike jihadists/terrorists like all of us and you are still insulting them by treating them as endemic terrorists because of this faith given by their parents (somewhat like if you were w.a.s.p. you will inevitably be a ku kux klan supporter [sic])

Best regards,
Sensi

Sensi,

Your logic is so faulty. Your answer implies that Kim argues that:

premise: Islam is an evil ideology
premise: Muslims believe in Islam
conclusion: ALL Muslims are evil

This is a straw man because she has never argued this. With this straw man, you can invalidate it with one example of a good muslim. The actual claim by Kim, myself and others is:

premise1: Islam has some parts that are evil
premise2: Muslims more or less believe in Islam
conclusion: A minority of Muslims become evil to the extent that they accept the evil parts of the ideology.

Now, try knocking this one down. Certainly, no amount of anecdotal evidence of good muslims invalidates it. The fact that there are people insulted by a discussion of their ideology is irrelevant.

Some may be confused by the concept of religious freedom. Simple logic will clear this up right away. Rights must be internally consistent. Religious freedom is a subset of the right to Liberty. You can believe in any religion you want, unless it means violating other people rights. For example, if some obscure christian sect decides that all medical treatment is evil, the courts have properly decided that they don't have the right to deny their child life saving medical treatment.

Therefore, religious freedom is limited by other rights. In reality, Islamic law is already illegal (in the US that is; analysis of your own legal system is left to the reader):

1st: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech

Sharia demands that there be no separation between political and religious life. It demands supreme authority.

Sharia violates freedom of speech, since criticising Islam is punishable by death. Recent events such as the murders in the Netherlands prove it's no idle threat. There are numerous related events here in the US as well.

4th: nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

Murdering people who leave Islam violates the 4th amendment. This might violate a few other laws as well. :) In fact, this qualifies Islam as a cult in the modern secular sense.

13th: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude..shall exist within the United States

Dhimitude is the islamic concept that non muslims are relegated to slavery. Actually happening where they have control. Where they don't have complete control, it leads to other crimes. For example, rapes in scandinavia.

In addition, Sharia violates laws guaranteeing non discrimination based on gender.

These examples proves that premise1 is correct.

So, I'm not anti muslim. I'm pro human rights. What are you?

Bonjour Sensi,

Vous devriez lire mes réponses plus soigneusement. J'ai aussi beaucoup des amis 'musulmans ', mais ils ne croient pas en contes de fées comme 90 pour cent des autres musulmans qui croient que le Coran est un livre ecrit par Dieu ou monsieur Allah.

J'essayerai de répondre à vos questions plus tard. Je suis très occupé maintenant avec quelqe chose importante.

Tschuess !

Sook-Im
Ta belle-soeur

This is for John, USA | 2005-08-29 17:16

Dear John,

I am sorry that after so many months I visited this site only yesterday. Don’t have time to visit your site, perhaps do so sometime tonight. Anyway, we go to your inquiries about Islam. You may not find the answers you are looking for. The answers that can satisfy you are already of a particular type, which I cannot give. The content of these answers have already been defined by the dogmatic beliefs and hatred your thoughts are anchored in.

Why any body should respect a person like Muhammad, and for that matter, people who follow a person like Islam’s great prophet? You ask this.

Dear John, to give you only one reason why should you respect Muslims I shall argue from the paradigmatic premises of your liberal tradition. By your liberal tradition, every human being gets respect in virtue of his/her being a human being. You may not like his/her ideas and you may not like his/her deeds but yet you are supposed to respect him/her. One billion Muslims are human beings and I don’t expect you denying me. Since they are so, you are supposed to respect them. You may not like them following Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him), but still by your western tradition you are supposed to respect them.

As far as the question why should anyone respect Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) is concerned, I can give you just one reason. Would you like to respect the guy who forgave the enemy who had killed his own uncle and eaten up his body parts? Interestingly, he showed mercy when the enemy was helpless and he had the full power and opportunity to take revenge. I know you would respect him but senses are overpowered by the black mud of so powerful hate.

I have not read the story of cutting body parts of a captive but I know one thing that I have to accept the story that is consistent with the general personality of Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him). In general, various sources inform us that Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) respected the prisoners of war to the extent that he gave them the responsibility of educating Muslim children. Any thing contradicting with this story has to be rejected, and for that reason I reject the story you referred to.

Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) took slaves, no doubt about it. But he encouraged freeing slaves and did himself. He gave clear signals that eventually slavery had to be abolished. As a first step he gave certain rights to the slaves. Indeed, Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) took the captive women to his bed but not before he had covered her head with his shawl, and married her. He gave her respect first and married then. Leaving that women for the entertainment of a dozen of soldiers, as it was so customary in the Roman Empire of those days, could certainly be worse than what he did, couldn’t it be? Today, we call the same captive woman as our Mother.

Muhammad married a girl who still played with the doll. You may call him what you want but this will be only by you own particular sort of prejudices. Today, as the capitalism has taken roots, when labor force of individual workers is what you need and family life is being ignored, you have taken age for marriage to 30, it may seem strange a guy marrying with so little girl. But a women who has reached her puberty is able to do marriage and take the responsibility of raring children, as the same nature that has given her puberty has taught her how to rare her off springs. My mother married with my father when she was only fifteen or sixteen. She is happy to be married at that age. You would not recommend it especially when you come to know that my father is 12 years older than my mother. I don’t care. What I do care is that they are happy. In the west, girls at that age do not play with the dolls any more. They play video games and yet enjoy sex life, by using condoms of course. Sometimes they even get pregnant by mistake. So why not get them married with someone at an early age, after having reached their puberty.

Doesn't the fact that he had special rules for himself tell you something? You inquire. It does tell us that he was a special being, a perfect being. A perfect being will have some special rules as well. As far as his criticism is concerned, we cannot do so. Criticism is a western tradition, rooted mainly in the philosophy of Descartes who allegedly criticized every thing and denied every authority. We don’t do so. Authorities that are taken in principle beyond all kind of criticism are Allah, Koran and Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him). The rest can be brought under scrutiny to varying degrees. However, we can criticize the sources that link us back to Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) only to understand His personality better and make this understanding internally consistent. We can also criticize different commentaries of Koran, and we have done so in the entire history of Islam.

I agree with you that people who torture and kill the innocent people are scumbags.

Soon I shall be visiting your website.

kim sook-im | 2005-08-31 17:55 |

Dear Kim,

I’m back and this time with the challenge that your 'prediction' of an “catastrophe which may leave only one percent Muslims to get converted to all other religions and dogmas except Islam” will not come true. Initially, I give you five years. Anyway, someone who imagined this catastrophe must be really VERY SICK.

sensi, Paris | 2005-09-03 20:15 |

Dear sensi, you expect kim sook in changing some way, how innocent. Her heart has been sealed off.

Gunnar, Maryland | 2005-09-04 00:21 |
premise1: Islam has some parts that are evil
premise2: Muslims more or less believe in Islam
conclusion: A minority of Muslims become evil to the extent that they accept the evil parts of the ideology.
Now, try knocking this one down. Certainly, no amount of anecdotal evidence of good muslims invalidates it. The fact that there are people insulted by a discussion of their ideology is irrelevant.

Dear Gunnar,

Your logic, as expressed in the above argument, is equally faulty and it is so easy to knock down this argument.

1. The premise 1 is really begging the question and therefore the argument can hardly be validated. Many have argued that Islam is good but there are some forms or interpretations or even understandings of it which are evil. To show that premise 1 is warranted one needs to do more than what has been done so far by either you or by kim. Your argumentation at the end of which does not prove at all that the Premise 1 is correct.
(a) Things that are not permitted by American Constitution don’t become for that reason. Norway, by definition, is a Christian democratic Monarchy. So I wouldn’t call it an evil, neither do the great majority of Norwegians.
(b) Blasphemy is an act condemnable to death in many Muslim countries but not without due process of law. A reference to single events like murder in Netherlands used to forma generalization is the same kind of mistake that you tried to avoid when you constructed the above argument.
(c) Slavery is forbidden in all Islamic countries and it is so because Islam allows doing so. Crimes that disrupt the social harmony are also forbidden in Islam. By the way, rape is something that leads to really harsh punishment in Islamic societies, though some may get away with it because of faults in the implementation of law.
(d) Thus, nothing shows that your premise 1 is correct.
(e) But what is to say that something is evil?

2. In your argumentation a fallacy of suppressed evidence is also being committed. Suppose just for the sake of argument that Some parts of Islam are evil, then there are many other religions and ideologies that contain evil parts. This is an evidence which is being suppressed or ignored here, and throughout in kim’s argumentation. Her only target is always Islam.
3. Then, there is a matter of definitions of the terms used in the premise1. From the conclusion it appears that “Islam” is being defined as an ideology. But ideology is a modern term and many contend therefore that Islam should not be taken as an ideology. Marxism is an ideology and so is liberalism but they are not religions, they say. On the other hand, evil is a term that is completely religious and within that context it works well, as the term “gravity” works well within Newtonian physics. This means that “evil” may not suit well, and even can be incompatible, with the term “Islam” defined as ideology and not as a religion. All this shows that both terms of “Islam” and “evil” are used in a bit ambiguous way. Therefore, I apologize for not taking the argument validated.

For now it is enough, I believe, to knock down the argument.

Ahlan wa sahlan ya Nadeem,

No my heart is not sealed off. However you look at it -especially from a critical historical viewpoint devoid of embellishment and folklore - islam is still a form of theological nazism , a theofascist system.

You strike me as a kind hearted person exuding an aura of human kindness - evidence of the resilient and indomitable human spirit which is goodness and kindness when not corrupted by the evil of theofascism ( islam or christian or otherwise !). Many like you choose to wear the label of islam more out of pride for culture and ethnicity rather than any veracity in the spirituality of this form of theofascism.

I present you the following essay to bolster my premise:

http://www.annaqed.com/english/attack/a_call_to_the_muslims_of_the_world.html

"....Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue?....."

Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim

where there is smoke there is fire

जहां धुआं है, वहां आग भी है.

Nadeem,

Sorry the link above was faulty. Here is the corrected link to the article : ' a call to all muslims of the world from a group of freethinkers of muslim origin'

http://www.annaqed.com/
english/attack/a_call_to_the
_muslims_of_the_world.html

Thanks.

sister Ayesha N. Kim

Isn't it interesting that a disproportionate no. of rapes are committed by male adherents of the religion of peace and love (Islam) or at least originate from countries that inspire them to respect and 'honor' women to the point that they imprison their womenfolks behind veils and strangle and slit their women's throat at the slightest suspicion of impropriety....such is the inspiration from the religion of peace and love.

o.K. Nadeem, read on ..........see if you can come up with a good explanation for these phenomenon of rape of infidel women by immigrant muslims in infidel countries. No beating around the bush now !

Oh and Oeyvind ( and Bjoern ) , honey-buns , do throw in your 50 cents worth of opinions too. Don't let that proverbial cat get your tongues ;)

here's an excerpt from :

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/Fjordman51213.htm

'........According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. According to these statistics, almost half of all perpetrators are immigrants. In Norway and Denmark, we know that non-Western immigrants, which frequently means Muslims, are grossly overrepresented on rape statistics. In Oslo, Norway, immigrants were involved in two out of three rape charges in 2001. The numbers in Denmark were the same, and even higher in the city of Copenhagen with three out of four rape charges. Sweden has a larger immigrant, including Muslim, population than any other country in northern Europe. The numbers there are likely to be at least as bad as with its Scandinavian neighbors. The actual number is thus probably even higher than what the authorities are reporting now, as it doesn't include second generation immigrants. Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court, found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or by foreign parents........'

Sister Inga Kim

Dear Kim,

I read your comments and right now cannot respond, for in few moments I am leaving to cover a story. You will get my reply as soon as I return. Remmber, it is 11.00 and in Sweden it might be 07.00. An explanation of the data presented by you will include perhaps four parts (1) discrimination on the part of your law-enforcement agencies and judicial system (2) moral up-rootedness of many of immigrants (3) cultural misunderstanding (4) propoganda by many of the immigrant-haters. I'll be back soon.

With Regards

Nadeem

Dear Kim,

This is right that I am very proud of my culture, my religion, my people, my land and all what has formed for the good or bad. I love this all and I am ready to conflict with anyone who is threatening this. I don’t care which century I live in. In no way, it is a different century than, for example, the Ist one. In that century the western man had manifested its tendency for death and destruction in the form of the Roman Empire and in the present century it has done so in the form of American Empire. What is the difference then? Islam presented and proved that it is the alternative to the corruption of the Roman Empire and it is doing the same today.

Indeed, Islam is not like Buddhism because Buddhism is only one aspect of Islam. Islam is for peace as is Buddhism. But it can allow war to fight and eliminate the evil, when necessary. By the way, tell me which country with the maximum population of Buddhists has not an army and has not gone to the war. Of course, Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) went to the wars but only after he had exhausted all means to convince His enemies.

By the way, why did I need to write this all when I have answered these objections already somewhere in our discussion? You seem to be repeating the same point again and again and ignoring what one has said already. It is madness, kim. Come on Dear, open your mind to the views that reject your biases. Tell me, as a Muslim am I always supposed to be on trial? I tell you if I do something wrong I have the courage to accept it and even take my punishment gladly. But I am not supposed to be always apologetic to the unargued allegations and propaganda.

Your comments on rape: No beating about the bush. First of all, rape is a universal phenomenon. In 2000 in USA alone around 90,000 people were convicted for rape. Many rapes are not registered at all and in many cases you cannot prove it. If we take only proven rapes then on every single day 246 and around 10 women every hour are raped. In Australia, the numbers were more than 15000. In spite of a population many times more than Australia, India got away with only 15000 rapes. Even in Finland where few Muslim immigrants live the number of rapes are higher than Norway. In Norway 555 people were convicted while in Finland 569. My point is that rape is a universal phenomenon and people from all cultures are represented in the statistics, although all cultures disapprove it.

In the statistics what you have produced are only charges. The study has shown that it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden, but it has not shown how many times it is more likely that a person with yellow or black skin and Muslim religion becomes suspect, compared to a person with white skin. Just imagine, if there is sitting a white policeman in an Oslo police station, with the hate you have for the Muslims, what would he be doing with any one with black or yellow skin and a Muslim? We both know what he would do? Neither does the study show that if a black Muslim is brought to the court of a white man how likely would he be convicted, compared to a white men in the white man’c court. The immigrant haters in fact use the statistics tactically to prove the conclusions they have already arrived at.

But to say this is not to deny that there are Muslim rapists in Scandinavia. In fact, a Muslim is more likely to be a rapist in Oslo than, for example, in Islamabad. Muslims are to varying degrees Muslim. Some practice the Islamic norms just by habit. In many ways they are forced to conform to these because of the social pressure and bond. They function well as far as such pressure is present. In a city like Oslo they are socially and eventually moral uprooted. They feel free and therefore more vulnerable to the evil. Besides, many of the newcomers have a very wrong conception of sexual freedom in the west. It is not unlimited. Contrarily, certain constraints are there. Women are easily available and how long have they gone with you in playing around even in the bed, but you have to get their consent before any penetration. Together with this cultural misunderstanding uprootedness can be very fatal.

Even more, in our culture women always say no to sex even on the first night of your marriage. The men in many cases has to do sex even when he is hearing a NO. But since it is only a pretension and the woman is willing to go along, things go all right. Having observed and learned this, a man from our society may happen to ignore a NO from a Norwegian woman. But it happens only in the cases where force or threats are not involved but just verbal insistence.

Thus, together with the evil doing of a rapist which is common in all cultures and the racial discrimination in the law enforcement agencies and the judiciary, some cultural factors can also make appear as there are more rapists among the immigrants.

With Regards

Nadeem Sarwar

Nadeem,

are you the pakistani cricket player Nadeem Sarwar, or just happen to be his name sake ?!

Sister Ayesha Kim

Nadeem,

exactly what do you mean when you say that the pakistani or other muslim immigrants commit those heinous acts of rape etc, because they were *uprooted* and just practising their *cultural peculiarities* that they have learned in their home countries.

Do you see how you are thinking in a most shallow manner so typical of muslim men! making excuses and apologies for the bad and violent behaviours of muslims / men in particular !....nobody invited them to Norway. If other immigrant groups, like jains, shintoists, taoists,buddhists, hindus, catholics, bahais, tongans, sri lankans, venezuelans, hawaiians, hong-kongists,romanians etc. are willing to learn about the norms and culture of Norway before they embark on migrating to their new host country...don't you think it behooves muslims who migrate to their host country to learn about the norms and standards and culture of Norway? After all Norway is going to be their newfound home, don't you think out of courtesy and if they have a modicum of respect for others, they would at least tolerate the peculiarities of the norwegians and curb their manic obsessive compulsive islamically induced sexual perversion of rape and pillage when they are living in the infidel's homeland?

If i were walking around in conservative Qum in Iran, i would not prance around in my leotards, or even wear my brightly colored Hanbok or Han-guk pokshik ( billowy korean national dress for women:)...i would probably dress up in a chaddor and even use a burqa and not a flimsy doppetta !

So instead of spinning on and on creating more excuse and mental justification for the bad behaviours of your muslim compatriots , why don't you just admit that the nasty tenets of islam have somehow turn them into maniacs and that they need to be deprogrammed and their mind reinstilled with civilized norms of behaviour !

I thought you might be interested in reading these very well written articles about how the muslim mind works...of course you won't agree with everything in it...but try to be neutral and rational , instead of saying thins like * i am proud of my culture , everything in my culture etc.and i will fight anyone who disagrees with me* -- when you say that you are implying you agree with the horrible misogyny so rampant in pakistani culture ex. the recent murders of 3 female children of a pakistani day laborer in order to save his 'honor'!

Let us forget about western society for a moment. As an asian women, i would not blindly say that i am proud of everything korean! Heck , korean society is still pretty male oriented and chauvinist. In fact there is an old korean saying that a good korean man will beat his wife in order to make her a good woman ! So should i be proud of that stupid adage! of course not...and i dare any korean man to touch me with his pinky, cos ah still have mah trusty little Ginzu knife hidden 'neath mah pretty cherry blossom HanBok LOL ;) . On the other hand, korean women tend to be vey bossy and can nag and hen-peck you to death in one breath! So if you ever hook up with a pretty korean lass , i'm available for consultation ;) on how to handle her !

Sister Ayesha Kim

http://www.faithfreedom.org/mcommets.htm

Nadeem, oops, sorry here are the links i mentioned in the last post:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60112.htm ( a glimpse into the muslim mind)

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina51227.htm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/mcommets.htm

Shukran wa ma3a salaamah
Ayesha Kim

Ref: kim sook-im | 2006-01-01 21:42 |

No dear I am not a cricketer. Unfortunately, there has never been a famous cricketer of this name, as far as I know. I am journalist, a part-time businessman and a student.

Ref: kim sook-im | 2006-01-13 15:29 |

Dear kim,
I just tried to offer an explanation, as every human action requires an explanation. You did the same when you blamed religion for everything bad a Muslim immigrant does or has ever done. My attempt was to give an alternative to your view, which you can easily discard. But your rejection needs to be such that it takes roots in my explanation. I don’t give excuses for bad acts, either for my own or of anyone else. But it would be unfair to term everything to Islam. As I said earlier, Islam forbids adultery anyway and anyone who practices Islam in its whole essence would definitely not engage in heinous acts like rape and likewise. For those who observe Islamic norm consciously it doesn’t matter whether they are in Pakistan or in Sweden. They live their lives in accordance with them everywhere. Consequently, they don’t commit rape equally here and there. But those who follow these norms habitually, by social compulsion, they are culturally uprooted in Sweden or in Britain. This cultural uprooted ness plays at least some role in making them a rapist.

You understood my other point well and this is why you said that these guys should learn the peculiarities of Norwegian or Swedish culture regarding sexuality or something else. Indeed, ideally they should do so but in practice it is not the case. Unfortunately, most of them have not learned consciously the peculiarities of their own culture, how would they do so in the case of Norwegian or Swedish culture. Forget the rapists for a moment and admire those Pakistanis who really appreciate the “peculiarities” of the western culture. Once a friend of mine slept first time with a Western girl and was asked to tell how did he feel, he replied: “I feel as all my life I have been f****** cows.”

I was a bit emotional when I said I am proud of everything my culture has. Practically, let alone my culture I am not even proud of everything I have in me. So there are many things in my culture that I dislike and there are things I really hate.

“On the other hand, korean women tend to be vey bossy and can nag and hen-peck you to death in one breath! So if you ever hook up with a pretty korean lass, i'm available for consultation ;) on how to handle her !” For the moment I don’t thing I am going to “hook up with a pretty Korean lass.” We have so pretty girls here in Pakistan. But you never know and there are a couple of them around here in my neighborhood. So I will keep your name in my mind for consultation when the time comes.

With Regards

Nadeem

Hey Nadeedm
You got to be insane when u say that Buddhism is a part of Islam....
I'll not counter it becoz thoughts of sanity can only be countered if they are true or false.
But foolishness cant be countered with any degree of truth...So Remain in ur Illusioan that Buddhism is part of Islam.....
Sorry Nadeem, u may turn a blind eye to whatever ur prophet did and u may still hold him Holy..But no sane man can....
By what u say, aisha was pretty ready when Mohamamd took her to satisfy his lust in the guise of Marrige... I guess whther u would follow ur prophet by marrying ur child at the age of nine to a smeely old man of 53 years old...
And what abt Mohamamd lusting for his daughter in law..what abt it...Dont tell me that she was divorced, so Mohammad gave her shelter...
Yes indeed Mohamad broke all rules of moral righteousness, If Mohammad comes today and acknowedges all what he did, he will br tried on the coutns of pedophile, slave taker, man slaughtereer and a war criminal..and a red corner notice will surely be out for him to get that physcopath..
U know many Hindus dont know abt the life of this ur prophet Mohammad, God knows how Hindus will treat the Muslims once they came to know abt this fellow(Mohamamd)....
Boss Mohamamd lived for 14 years after his wife's death.. After his wife's death he married(took) 11 wifes...which includes his final lust for a child..That suggests what his purpose was in this world.....How did he spent his worthfull(worthless) wife...

For any ordinary man these are just normall but boss ur talkign abt one and only the last prophet of Allah...it is normal for a common man of that era to marry a child even in his old age.. but boss ur talking abt prophet the holiest of holiest and he should know by the grace of Allah that a 9 year old child doesnt enjoy sex with a 53 year old girl, it pains fool, if u still dont beleive it ask ur child by asking her to sleep with a 53 year old guy and then know how she feels atleast then u may be brought to ur senses..
Wasted enough of tiem responding to ur moral righteousness

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