Comments on: Minireviews: Father Brown, Orientering

By: Raag Raaum

Raag Raaum — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 11:12:57 +0000

Of course, I can agree that if I lay down a matchstick along the highway it is parallel.

By: Bjørn Stærk

Bjørn Stærk — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 04:59:01 +0000

So when I say that there are interesting parallels between two things, your reply is that “no there can’t be, because here is one way in which they’re not identical”?

Like I said earlier, a historical parallel doesn’t mean the situations are identical. It means they are similar enough so that looking at one of them through the lens of the other, improves our understanding of both.

By: Raag Raaum

Raag Raaum — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:49:50 +0000

The relevance, as I see it, is that today even extremists like those found in for instance the VG debates (or “debates”) don’t meet the restrictions that people associated with Orientering were subject to.

Do you think there is extensive Secret Police surveillance on prominent document contributors?

My point is, you seem to look at being scolded in media as equivalent to the police harassment many more or less left wingers experienced back when Orientering was at it’s high.

By: Bjørn Stærk

Bjørn Stærk — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:21:00 +0000

I compared Orientering specifically to Document. You replied with a comment about “right wing racists”. If it didn’t refer to them, I don’t see the relevance to this post.

By: Raag Raaum

Raag Raaum — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 19:58:36 +0000

Re “right wing racists” – what would you call a number of participants in the discussions in for instance Norway’s most selling newspaper VG? The ones who say they are racists?

At what cost?

(But I agree in that I should have remembered to put “right” (as in the party Høyre) in quotes. I usually remember to do that. )

By: Bjørn Stærk

Bjørn Stærk — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 05:04:13 +0000

A historical parallel doesn’t mean the situations are identical. It means they are similar enough so that looking at one of them through the lens of the other, improves our understanding of both.

For instance, Orientering (/SF) comes out intellectually inferior in the comparison, because they believed in so much Communist propaganda, and morally inferior, because they didn’t mind much of the authoritarianism that they did see. For instance, when the Berlin Wall was erected, they accepted its purpose at face value: An anti-fascist protection wall.

Drawing this parallel should offend today’s rightists more than the old leftists.

But it’s still an interesting and meaningful parallel. The book is full of descriptions of Orientering, or of how people at the time perceived Orientering, or how Orientering viewed themselves, that apply almost equally well to Document today.

And if you think it was more difficult to speak your mind freely then, you’re right, but look at the language you’re using yourself: “right wing racists”. There’s a cost of opposing the mainstream, today as well.

By: Raag Raaum

Raag Raaum — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:55:00 +0000

“one radio channel, where Social Democrat (Arbeiderpartiet) and mainstream “unsocialist” (read conservative or Høire)”

should of course read … one radio channel where anything _except_ …

By: Raag Raaum

Raag Raaum — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 00:53:04 +0000

Well there was one more difference: The possibility to express un”authorised” views other than by obscure mimeographed leaflets, especially regarding foreign politics. There was one radio channel, where Social Democrat (Arbeiderpartiet) and mainstream “unsocialist” (read conservative or Høire) views were excluded. All newspapers were following some party line – mainly non-social democrat. Close to all of these were pro NATO.

They even included one “authorised” anti NATO (but otherwise loyal) voice – Karl Evang. Anyone more critical would only be “head” in mimeographed leaflets.

And, if you were a pacifist, you would be the target of Secret Police, and even the ordinary police would use the force of ten officers to control a demonstration consisting of five (or six if you include the two year old in a pram) pacifists.

The “oppression” of right wing racists (or Islam sceptics) today is far away from what happened when Orientering was started.