You should all download and watch the movie Theo van Gogh was murdered for, Submission - it's brilliant. The movie is about 44mb, and 10 minutes long. 1) Install a Bittorrent download client. 2) Download and run the torrent file to begin downloading movie. 3) You may also need to install the XviD video codec to see it. (The movie is called "Submission part 1", but there doesn't seem to be any more. It's in English, with Dutch subtitles.) Update: The torrent appears to be down. Try IFilm instead. Update 1/1/2005: Here's a new torrent link.

Thanks. Have been looking for this.

I'm not sure what my response to this video should be. It certainly brings home how marginlised some of the weaker members of our society can be. To think that such abuse can be conducted with impunity within western nations.

Hirsi Ali and Van Gogh were planning to turn the movie into a series. Hence part 1. I think she should ask Paul Verhoeven to direct a future part 2, which should be about the submission of infidels in dar-al-islam.

That was a really good film. I wish as many people as possible would see it.

Maybe this is like swearing in church, but I don't find this movie that brilliant. In two ways, of course, it is, it is repulsing - as probably was intented - and it is thought-provoking.

The question is, perhaps, what kinds of thoughts it does provoke. Is it a movie capable of creating a healthy debate about womens rights in Islam? I don't think so.

Actually, I find my self agreeing with Amir Maddoe in the Dutch Moslem Council who - just after the movie was shown on TV - said that this movie was going one step too far. Why do I agree with that?
Because it's not a movie fit too fuel the debate where it is most needed - within the Islamic community. Instead is it, as Maddoe, said: - Corn on the mill for fanatic groups.

That's true for both Islamic and anti-Islamic groups. A Muslim fanatic murdered Theo van Gogh for this movie, leaving after him a letter mirroring the ideology of Takfir wal Jihad. After the murder there have been two arson attempts on mosques in the Netherlands, a mosque in Rotterdam has been vandalized and a Muslim school severely damaged by a bomb. Aside of van Gogh, several prominent people in Holland have been threathened, including Ayyan Hirsi Ali, who made the film together with van Gogh.

I have high respect for them both. However, I think that they are talking to the Dutch public, not to the Islamic community. The result is that the important debate they tried to rise about womens rights in Islam has been transformed into a debate about immigration.

Finally let me quote the reaction of Mohamed Sini in the group Islam en Burgerschap (Islam and Citizenship). Just after the movie was shown on TV he said he hoped Muslims would look at it soberly. - When Hirsi Ali wants to interpret the Qu'ran this way she must be allowed to do that.

Then he added that he thought the movie would result in a sharper conflict. - Suppression of women and discrimination against Jews and homosexuals must be placed on the agenda, but surely not in this way.

I agree that it's not meant to convince anyone. It's meant for those who already agree with the message.

The biggest point it makes, of course, is Van Gogh's murder. Anyone who could be so offended by such a small, trifling thing that they'd kill the author has no place in civilized society. To the extent that the murder represents the wishes (or has the approval of) a large portion of the Dutch population is far more troubling than anything in the movie itself.
If I were a Dutch politician, I'd start looking at dual citizenship laws as an area of reform.

Øyvind:

"Then he added that he thought the movie would result in a sharper conflict. - Suppression of women and discrimination against Jews and homosexuals must be placed on the agenda, but surely not in this way. "

Yeah, right. The abusers feelings are more important than the victims. This is classic leftwing softism. It solves no problems, just prolonges the agony for our weakest. Is that humanism? I just don`t get this.

"I have high respect for them both. However, I think that they are talking to the Dutch public, not to the Islamic community. The result is that the important debate they tried to rise about womens rights in Islam has been transformed into a debate about immigration. "

Both debates are being raised. As to the latter: it`s about damned time we take it seriously. We must discuss the implications immigration of Muslims has on our society. And we need to think seriously of how big we can allow this minority to get.

nilsr:

Mohammed Sini hasn't abused anyone. Maybe he looks like an abuser to you because he's a Muslim, but in fact he's a guy who's entitled to have an opinion, just like you and me.

Ø.

Øyvind:

I am refering and disagreeing to his opinion, and the one you advocate. Not the right either one of you have to express one. How basic do we need to get???

>> Because it's not a movie fit too fuel the debate where it is most needed - within the Islamic community.

Free speech doesn't have to "fuel debate" or be constructive dialogue. In the US, there is plenty of speech that folks don't agree with. Our only moral argument is that we don't want public money used to fund it. And if they show it on TV, the market decides with lower ratings.

Sini says: - Suppression of women and discrimination against Jews and homosexuals must be placed on the agenda, but surely not in this way.

Do you disagree with him there? Do you think that it sholdn't be placed on the agenda? No? Didn't think so. Then he said that the movie Submission wasn't the right way to go about, not because the issues aren't important, but because he thinks the way it's being raised in the movie contributes to an unnecessary conflict.

Is that siding with the abusers? Let me get this clear; a Muslim leader thinks that these are real issues that should be raised, and just because he didn't like the movie "Submission" he's siding with the abusers? Get a grip.

Ø.

Gunnar wrote: Free speech doesn't have to "fuel debate" or be constructive dialogue.

True, Gunnar. But I'm not discussing free speech here, I support anyones right to say what van Gogh and Hirsi Ali said, and the murder of van Gogh was clearly an attack on free speech and on the Dutch society.

What I am disputing, though, is that "Submission" is a brilliant movie, and pointing out why I think it wasn't.

Ø.

Michael wrote: Anyone who could be so offended by such a small, trifling thing that they'd kill the author has no place in civilized society.

True. And such extremists are living amongst us. That's a real problem and it's not a minor problem. Still, please don't make it bigger than it is.

If I were a Dutch politician, I'd start looking at dual citizenship laws as an area of reform.

They're already doing that.

Øyvind

Øyvind,
like you don`t understand what I meant? You just try to show me how clever you can be, arguing for the sake of the argument. Showing everyone you are more clever and trained at this than the rightwing Bush-lover. Because holding my wiews I have to vote right wing and be almost illitarate? We are all prone to stereotypes, aren`t we. Applying your good will I`m sure you`ll get my meaning and quit the flisespikking.

nilsr, the only only applying stereotypes to you and calling you a rightwing Bush-lovers here is... you. I still want an answer to my question. "Yes" or "No" should be possible.

Is that siding with the abusers? Let me get this clear; a Muslim leader thinks that these are real issues that should be raised, and just because he didn't like the movie "Submission" he's siding with the abusers?

Why do I "flisespikk", like this? Well, frankly, nilsr because I don't like those reflex "The abusers feelings are more important than the victims"-responses, and especially not when no one has said anything about the "abusers feelings".

Ø.

Ø.

>> What I am disputing, though, is that "Submission" is a brilliant movie, and pointing out why I think it wasn't.

You don't seem to understand the bigger picture. When there is an argument about principles, and one side chooses to argue about details, they implicitly capitulate on the principle.

"fight to the death for your right to say it"

Say, we're in the deep south of the US or in South Africa, and a black man was lynched for allegedly saying something to a white woman. If you are part of the discussion, and you say "yes, he really shouldn't have said that to the woman", you completely capitulate on the bigger and far more important issue.

The fact that you minimize this into a film critique is quite revealing. You pay lip service to the idea that "no one has the right to kill anyone", but your actions speak louder than words.

Kind of like Kerry claiming that he was going to find the terrorists and kill them. What should we believe, 36 years of consistent history or a recent statement in a political campaign when it's obviously self-serving.

Ah, so the only thing we're allowed to discuss are murders?

>> Ah, so the only thing we're allowed to discuss are murders?

Anyone can discuss anything they want, but don't expect other people to avoid drawing conclusions about what you say.

It's a bit amazing to inject a film critique into a situation where the issues are 1) Jihadist murder, 2) freedom of speech, 3) govt failure regarding security, 4) survival of european culture.

It implies that the quality of the speech has any bearing on the whether it should be free.

Gunnar,
you got me just to the point. You even extended my point. I to start to believe we actually might be the same person ;)

Øyvind:

"Why do I "flisespikk", like this? Well, frankly, nilsr because I don't like those reflex "The abusers feelings are more important than the victims"-responses, and especially not when no one has said anything about the "abusers feelings". "

It`s not a reflex, it`s common sense. By saying the film shouldn`t have been made this way he is implying the murderers reaction to some degree is understandable, insulting their religion and thereby their feelings. That`s indirect support.

Nice trick, by the way, making my name bold to ridicule me. You sure know your retorics.

To be frank I am a bit amazed. First of all, we've already discussed all of what you mention in your post thoroughly.

Secondly, if you look closely, I'm quite sure you'll discover that this debate didn't start with me, but with a post by Bjørn, where he calls the movie "brilliant".

Of course I expected this reaction, after all it was like swearing in the church. But when it's suddenly a bit thing to dispute whether a movie is brilliant when you don't think it is... well, that's back to your second point, isn't it?

But most of all I think it's striking that you more or less say:

No! No! It's impossible to have two thoughts at the same time! Impossible! You hear me? Impossible!

Ø.

nilsr:

If you look around a bit you will probably discover that I sometimes write names in bold instead of using the usual "AliBaba: You said lalala-thing". I now realize I did this because I know my rhetorics. Odd.

And now let me explain something further for you, nilsr, since you can't have read my first post that good after all: Just after the movie was shown on TV he said.... That means, nilsr, he said all of those things I quoted, weeks before the murderer. But hey - he still supported the murders in a way, didn't he? He must have! He must!

Actually this was the reaction of Sini and others after the murders, and once more I am completely in agreement with him (my translation from Dutch):

This morning moviemaker, writer, columnist and program-maker Theo van Gogh (47) was murdered. The undersigned, spokespeople for Muslim organizations, social organizations and citizens of the Netherlands are chocked and condemn this act strongly.

Theo van Gogh often criticized the multicultural society and was critical towards aspects of Islam. He never hid his opinion. That he was violently brought to silence is hurts everyone in the Netherlands. The attack on Theo van Gogh is a non-permissable attack on the freedom of expression, the freedom of religion, the freedom that makes living in this country possible for all of us.

But does that mean it's wrong to think that his movie wasn't brilliant? Lets say some nut killed Michael Moore, would it then be wrong to say anything negative about any of his movies?

Ø.

Sorry about the silly spelling mistakes. It's just a way to look like I know my rhetorics even more, of course, because I'm a truly conspirational guy. Muahahaha!

"To be frank I am a bit amazed. First of all, we've already discussed all of what you mention in your post thoroughly. "

Are you suggesting I read every post in every thread before posting here? Can`t see that paragraph in the blogg rules.

"But most of all I think it's striking that you more or less say:

No! No! It's impossible to have two thoughts at the same time! Impossible! You hear me? Impossible!"

Your message for the murderer are, then: you did wrong, but it`s understandable. Well, excuse me, but I do not agree. You want to parttake in legitimizing these kind of acts, it`s your freedom of expression. But should you feel safe, then? Some nazi nationalists might get offended...

nilsr:

No, I do not expect you to read every post on every thread. I have, however, seen your name and Gunnars name on a thread dedicated to discussing the murder of Theo van Gogh and its implications. That thread had more than 300 posts and was called "Theo van Gogh assasinated".

I do not appreciate it when people lie about what I'm saying, nils. If Michael Moore was to be killed, and I was to criticize one of his movies or books, I still wouldn't say that the murder was acceptable.

That said, it's not impossible to understand at least some of the background for the murder.

But understanding it has nothing to do with Theo van Gogh and what he did, said or wrote - while it has everything to do with the murderer, his likely connections to an Islamist group, his inspiration from the fascist ideology of Takfir wal Jihad, etc, etc. This I have also written about on the above-mentioned thread.

Ø.

When i see this film, all I feel is the unjustice of this young woman. Well, ain`t I just a big softy. You seem more concerned with the feelings of the abuser.

You probobly think he uses to powerful symbols, making too much out of it, blunt and to the edge, no respect.And he really takes it all the way out.

But isn`t that neccessary? Don`t we need this wake-up-call? We have all known how they treat their women, we`ve known it for a long time. Yet we shut up and exept it. The abuse of the weakest part. We accept, afraid to offend. I don`t think we should. You might, I don`t.

this movie sucked
rape and abuse are things we do as humans
and its sad

why cant we all just get along

@Mark

"rape and abuse are things we do as humans"

Don't comment if you don't understand what it's about, and your perception of humans is quite
pathetic and narrow-minded.

It's about a religion in which name afwul things can happen against women

I am a muslim and I watched the film after Theo van Gogh's murder. There are few things that I wanted to discuss regarding the movie.
The movie revolves around the issue of women abuse in muslim society. As a muslim I know that abuse is not at all allowed in Islam. Islam preaches repect for all mankind and women are not out of that list. The concept that the film (in my view) has put forth is that EVERY muslim in the world is faced with the same situation. This is again totally wrong. I have read about cases of women abuse in USA as well in european countries and those women were not muslim. The cases of women abuse is found in every sociey including Islam so why just highlight the plight of muslim women and not the case of 'women abuse' as a whole? Why try to give a bad name to Islam when there are such cases in every religion and society? and a director of such caliber should have known that such cases are fragmented and in low in number in EVERY sociey including Islam. You would be now thinking that such cases are in Islam mostly well this is again a wrong perception. I have yet to see a person disrespect a woman and if anyone does he is severely punished and looked down upon.
The next issue was the verses of Quran on a nude body. If the director wanted to portray injustice in a religion then why did he chose to disrespect a religion where the Quran is thought of as as sacred book.......How would a christian feel if verses of the old testament are engraved on the body of nude nun?? how would a jew feel if a body of a nude girl is engraved with verses of Torah and she is praying in front of the wailing wall???

The next point was that I wanted to discuss is the murder of the director....I would like to say just one thing that is in my religion.

"If a person kills someone its like he has killed the entire humanity".

Such strong words are present in Islam against murder of anyone.

I would again say that muslims are themselves to blame in giving their own religion a bad name by doing deeds which are strongly spoken against in Islam, which is a religion of peace.

How would a christian feel if verses of the old testament are engraved on the body of nude nun?? how would a jew feel if a body of a nude girl is engraved with verses of Torah and she is praying in front of the wailing wall???

Been there, done that. It's called Madonna. Madonna doesn't feel her life is any danger. We (christians and jews) have had continuous insults to our religion for 2000 years and longer for the jews. Most of Europe are Christian apostates, but they aren't in any physical danger because of it.

The answer is that we'd feel bad, but the Christian directive in this case is to "shake the dust off your feet, and move on". How do you explain why "thou shalt not kill" had to be removed because it offended the muslims?

I would again say that muslims are themselves to blame in giving their own religion a bad name by doing deeds which are strongly spoken against in Islam, which is a religion of peace

Sounds good, and if true, you can prove it by VERY aggresively denouncing violence against infidels, blasphemers, and apostates. Have a world council or something, and make a unanimous declaration to that effect. Cooperate with the non-muslim authorities to identify the extremists in your midst. If you don't, you are accessories to crime.

However, evidence to the contrary exists. For example, a sheik who visited most of the mosques in the US indicated that almost all of them are breeding grounds for extremists. And now a report that BinLaden has received religious permission to use a nuclear device in the US

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash2.htm

Doesn't sound very peaceful. You claim it's a religion of peace, but religious clerics in Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, and Saudi Arabia disagree with you. Who should we believe, you or these religious leaders?

However, the question is irrelevant, since the war is against islamo-fascists, not muslims. It's quite easy to tell the difference.

does anyone have a viable link to Submission? It seems it is no longer available at http://www.genoeg.nu

where can I download submission

I did read a few comments of muslims about Theo van Gogh movie and found out it was the same reaction as after sept. 11:
1.Pointing how good islamic law is, but do not tell us that is good only with respect to another muslim. If you are not a muslim, you are infadel, and koran let them to chop your head.
2.they start to criticise how bad christianity was and how bad our society is now.
But in our society no body kills another person if that person shows abuse or wrong doing of another person. We solve that in our courts.
Islam can not stand criticism as christianity can,
becouse if it does everybody will see a lot of liyes.

Victor, California | 2004-11-13 16:13 | Link
I did read a few comments of muslims about Theo van Gogh movie and found out it was the same reaction as after sept. 11:
1.Pointing how good islamic law is, but do not tell us that is good only with respect to another muslim. If you are not a muslim, you are infadel, and koran let them to chop your head.
2.they start to criticise how bad christianity was and how bad our society is now.
But in our society no body kills another person if that person shows abuse or wrong doing of another person. We solve that in our courts.
Islam can not stand criticism as christianity can,
because if it does everybody will see a lot of lies.

Gunnar Wrote:::>"Cooperate with the non-muslim authorities to identify the extremists in your midst. If you don't, you are accessories to crime."

Well my friend my country is already doing that and trust me we are the ones who are suffering the consequences. Still the "non-muslim authorities" say that we are not doing enough. Waging war in ones own domain is never a good option.

Maybe you are one of those people who closely watch Fox news so u do not know what happens in a war. A documentary made my a foreign journalist after the fall of Taliban proved the attrocities done by US forces in Afganistan. That documentary was never aired due to the pressure by the Bush administration. Someday that documentary will air on TV,but for now lets live in darkness. Now please remember what the US forces did in Abu-Gharib prison.

Your answer would be "remember what extremist did in 9-11"....well you are right but that but those well EXTREMIST and FUNDAMENTALIST. We do not even consider them muslims. Try justifying the behaviour of US forces in Abu-gharib prision. If you say that those people were justified then my friend that leaves no room for further discussion or wasting words.

Gunnar Wrote:::>"And now a report that BinLaden has received religious permission to use a nuclear device in the US."

A guy living in the mountains owns a nuclear device....wow now thats something that actually crosses the threshold of stupidity and leaps into the moron world....and he recieved religious permission???.....permission from who??? Surely he wouldnt need permission from anyone.....Strange but it was the CIA who equipped him with the weopons in the first place..

Victor wrote:::>"1.Pointing how good islamic law is, but do not tell us that is good only with respect to another muslim. If you are not a muslim, you are infadel, and koran let them to chop your head."

Victor.....I recommend knowing before saying anything as stupid as this.......There is nothing and I repeat NOTHING in the Quran that says this.......U know what it actually says....It says to live with other religions in peace and harmony".....which SOME extremist choose not to........

I recommend studying religions.....Quran says that Moses and Jesus were sent by God to preach their religion in the world. Quran hasnt denied any of there existence and their work on earth.

I just read comment on my comment about chopping heads of infadels and it conforms that Muslims lie about the Koran. After September 11 I went to a bookstore to buy Koran. But I did not find it. There was a lot of books explaining Islam , if you read one you will come to conclusion that Islam is very nice religion. But I don’t like to read somebody commentaries, so went on internet and downloaded Koran from an Islamic cite.
I could not believe what I read. It did say do not make friends with Christians and Jews , if they resist do chop their heads, that the Bible is altered and was written by Paul in 4th century and etc. Than I heard on radio that Muslims altered their Koran, so I downloaded it again and guess what ? Those thing are gone from their Koran. So do not tell me that it is peaceful religion. It is deceiving and full of lies religion! Have said this I started afraid for my life. Islam doesn’t like when somebody tells the truth about it.

Well my friend my country is already doing that and trust me we are the ones who are suffering the consequences.

Good, and I thank you so much.

Someday that documentary will air on TV,but for now lets live in darkness.

I know very well that war is horrifying. That's why it was such a bad idea to provoke the US. If the US had known about the previous attacks on it's soil, there would have been war. A much smaller attack would have been enough to provoke the lion. But 9/11 was so much more than a provocation. It was enough to topple every regime in the mideast that harbors terrorists. For it's wisdom, Pakistan will be the only one left standing. I also will take the positive attitude of the afghan people as evidence that the US action was good.

those well EXTREMIST and FUNDAMENTALIST. We do not even consider them muslims.

But they consider themselves muslim, and they find support for their murderous jihad in the Quran. I have no interest in debating religion. If they are incorrect, why doesn't the rest of Islam convince them of this.

Try justifying the behaviour of US forces in Abu-gharib prision. If you say that those people were justified then my friend that leaves no room for further discussion or wasting words.

Certainly not, since these were the actions of certain individuals who are the products of certain dark aspects of our society. The main figure has been sentenced to 8 years. Keep in mind that no one was injured or killed. It's outrageous to make a moral equivalence between this stupidity and terroristic murder.

A guy living in the mountains owns a nuclear device....wow now thats something that actually crosses the threshold of stupidity and leaps into the moron world....and he recieved religious permission???.....

You're right, that's why it's obvious that he has state sponsors. The evidence that he has been trying to purchase nuclear weapons is overwhelming. Russians confirm that some suitcase nukes are unaccounted for. His cells were spread throughout the world. Apparently, a Saudi cleric wrote a paper giving permission.

The Dutch people are just getting a taste of what is it all about that non-muslim peoples living among muslims (whether minority or not) have been experiencing for decades since the advant of "fundamentalism". The west have been flirting with "fundamentalism" islam as if it is a passing fad, quaint, a minority occupation, like maybe your "mormorns" or "quakers". It is not a joking matter, it is deadly serious. It is not Palastine, it is everywhere!

Savane,south of thailand,

The leftist and euro-apologists blame israel and the US for the islamists atrocities and violence, and now they are getting a taste of the "religion of love and tolerance" LOL. They had better wake up to the fact that Islam/mullahIslam to be exact is a killing machine and like the Borg in star trek it will swallow up the whole of europe in no time. The prime directive of islam is to subjugate the world of the infidels to allah and shariah and to put it under the control of god's head honcho or bully, the Caliph, regent supreme of god on earth.I read somewhere that the islamists have a 20 pt agendae to infiltrate and subjugate the democratic countries, high immigration, high birth rate, aggressive proselytization of locals, aggressive intermarriage with locals ( all infidel wives have to convert to islam, never the other way around, leaving islam is punishable by death= remember it is a superCult), aggressive participation in politics,electorial and judiciary, surreptitious attempt to undermine and weaken the existing constitution of the democratic society and insert islamic laws/jurisprudence and eventually the shariah( they have succeeded in canada), liason with rightist or leftist ,temporary allies to further the ultimate agenda of islamization of the host socieety ,,etc etc..these are only a few of the insidious agendae of the world islamists.......we are talking of religious hegemony of the worst kind the arabization and bedouinization of western civilization and democratic entities of the world......we are talking of ISLAMO-FASCISM A FORM OF THEOCRATIC NAZISM..........CITIZENS OF THE FREE WORLD WAKE UP , WAKE UP, WAKE UP.

99% OF ALL WORLD CONFLICTS INVOLVE ISLAMISTS........THE VIOLENCE, HATRED, MAYHEM AND HAVOC ARE THE SYMPTOMS, THE CAUSE IS THE EVIL NEO-FASCISTIC INTERPRETATION OF THE QURANIC TEXT. ISLAM IS IN NEED OF A MAJOR INTERNAL REVOLUTION CALL IT PROTESTANTIC REVOLUTION IF YOU WILL OTHERWISE WE ARE HEADED TOWARDS A CATASTROPHE OF EPIC PROPORTION...THE STAKES ARE HIGH and if the intelligence sources are reliable, it has been reported in the news that Osama bin ladin has obtained religious permission from a saudi Sheikh to use nuclear weapons as a justifiable means of jihad against the US and other democracies/infidels of the world !!!........and since the 'infidels' are even more lethally armed, muslims should take heed world wide that for the sake of their own preservation and for the preservation of the human species, they must embark immediately on serious introspection and vigorous attempt to reign in the militant elements of their creed and to seek an immediate reformation of their faith that it may coexist peacefully with the other 5 billion inhabitants of this planet

Kim Sook-Im

Enough bullshit.

"In the Muslim people the will to self-sacrifice does not go beyond the individual's naked instinct of self-preservation. Their apparently great sense of solidarity is based on the very primitive herd instinct that is seen in many other living creatures in this world. It is a noteworthy fact that the herd instinct leads to mutual support only as long as a common danger makes this seem useful or inevitable. The same pack of wolves which has just fallen on its prey together disintegrates, when hunger abates, into its individual beasts …

It is similar with the Muslim. His sense of sacrifice is only apparent. It exists only as long as the existence of the individual makes it absolutely necessary. However, as soon as the common enemy is conquered, the danger threatening all averted and the booty hidden, the apparent harmony of the Muslims among themselves ceases, again making way for their old causal tendencies. The Muslim is only united when a common danger forces him to be or a common booty entices him; if these two grounds are lacking, the qualities of the crassest egoism come into their own, and in the twinkling of an eye the united people turns into a horde of rats, fighting bloodily among themselves …

If the Islamists were alone in this world, … they would try to get ahead of one another in hate-filled struggle and exterminate one another, in so far as the absolute absence of all sense of self-sacrifice, expressing itself in their cowardice, did not turn battle into comedy here too.

So it is absolutely wrong to infer any ideal sense of sacrifice in Muslims from the fact that they stand together in struggle, or, better expressed, in the plundering of their fellow men.

Here again the Muslim is led by nothing but the naked egoism of the individual."

The reactions on Submission proof a large problem in islam: there are no real possibilities to question islam culture. Originally the movie is meant for debate whitin the muslem world, but real discussion is very difficult. Most Dutch muslem condemn the murder on Van Gogh of course. But even before the murder the attention was diverted from the real problem, because a lot of people felt offended by the movie. Van Gogh could have made his point in a slightly less confronting way, but that would not have provoked a usefull discussion in the muslem world either. The reactions on the movie proove that that there is a huge gap between the western and muslem cultures, and it is very important not to deny that gap. It will take a lot of time - and a lot of pain I'm afraid - before we will come closer. But we must not give up and realise we have to live together in peace. The only solution is debate.

Slightly less? These issues are in fact raised in Muslim countries as well, and by people who are absolutely provocative, but still far less provocative than van Gogh was.

He tried to raise the issue in the Netherlands, of course, and he succeeded. It seems logical to think that this, and not to create debate amongst Muslims, was his real goal.

Still, Susan, you managed something quite a few of the Islam-critics in here do not manage to do. Criticizing Islam in a sensible way. For this: Dank u wel!

Øyvind

Thank goodness for the internet, so that people from various countries can bring what they know to the table. Until 9/11, I was totally unaware of the dangers of Islamic expansionism. I was a "leftwinger" just like you, Oyvind.

After 9/11 I began to read a lot, and I found that most standard sources of information aimed at the general public, like the New York Times, were not serious about the threat. I'm still not sure why this is.

You, too, Oyvind, as I've remarked on other threads, always seem to find excuses for Islam rather than coming up with useful ideas about how to control its expansionism.

>> The only solution is debate.

Yea, like the only solution to the Nazi invasion of the Netherlands was debate. Good job talking them out of it. War never solved anything. So, how did the brave Dutch people avoid goose stepping for the last 50 years? Oh, yea, his name was George S Patton.

So, while you're debating, the US will be crushing the terrorist islamo-fascists under foot.

I'd have to agree with Gunnar on this one. Actions really do speak much louder than words.

Just look at Gunnar, nothing short of a shot to the head (Iraq War execution style) is going to change his intractable positions.

;-)

Dave

>> Just look at Gunnar, nothing short of a shot to the head (Iraq War execution style) is going to change his intractable positions.

Thanks for the cheap shot.

Actually, my positions are quite changeable by logic and facts. I'm still open on the question of whether Islam is a religion of peace or not.

Dave, QLD . . .

That is a cheap shot against Gunnar, who spends a lot of time giving you reasoned arguments, and yet I've never seen you give a reasoned argument back.

"I'm still open on the question of whether Islam is a religion of peace or not."

I'd say its both and neither. Judging by the variety of evidence presented here on this blog in the past, I'd say that just like some other major religions I could name, that many of its earlier religious works and doctrines are contradictory. And I think this contradiction is reflected in the behaviour of muslims, which is why you get these wackos like Bin Laden (is he dead yet or what?) and them some moderates like here in Australia (we seem to be better apt at filtering out the bad immigrants) who work, mind their own business and trouble no one.

Sorry about the cheap shot Gunnar, obivously you know I'd never fire a real shot at you in anger (unless Norway decided to invade Australia)
Cheers,
David.

>> Sorry about the cheap shot Gunnar, obivously you know I'd never fire a real shot at you in anger (unless Norway decided to invade Australia)

No worries, mate, I do know that. :)

Invasion is out of the question, but how about if we raid one of your coastal villages, and plunder and pillage for awhile?

Sure, no worries. My advice, target the southern states, they're less likely to defend themselves, and stear clear of Queensland. That state's full of right-wing rednecks http://www.dsp.org.au/dsp/ds-on17ju.html. I should know, I'm one of them ;-)

Dave.

With 'no violence' I mean violence committed by citizens, on citizens: e.g. setting muslem schools (or christian churches) on fire etc. like is happening in the Netherlands. There is no need to punish children and lower ourself to the level of the terrorists. This doesn't help solve the problem and doesn't touch terrorists at all. I do think the government should be more aware off the dangers of terrorism and that they should eliminate terrorism from our society. I am aware that there will be violence involved to do so.

Susan,

We agree completely then. Perhaps, as a long term solution, a democracy that is much more responsive to the people might be good. That way, political correctness won't fester so long. People need to call a spade a spade and protect their culture and their values as they see fit.

Vigilantes are caused by a perception that law and order aren't working.

I have written this before and I will write this again....."Do not confuse terrorist with muslims"....The people who were involved in 9/11-at least we do not consider muslims as they targetted innocent people, which is against in Islam.

Kim wrote>>>"( all infidel wives have to convert to islam, never the other way around, leaving islam is punishable by death= remember it is a superCult"

First of all define the word "infidel".. if you say that it is someone who is a non muslim then you are wrong. The perception that you have is also wrong. if you think the 'inifidel' women have to convert to islam to marry....then you are again wrong...they dont at least noone that I know did it to marry a muslim. leaving islam is punishible by death??.....I cant even comment on something as stupid as this.

The terrorists who kill innocent people have no ..... and i mean NO understanding of islam or they would not do such a henious act

Victor wrote>>>"that the Bible is altered and was written by Paul in 4th century and etc. Than I heard on radio that Muslims altered their Koran"

well victor I do not remember any mention of name paul in quran so i do not know which quran you have read. but i think you should know your holy books well cuz I can name two versions of it...old testament and the new testament. and they are quite different from one another. Of the changing in quran then go find qurans which are in turkey which are thousand years old....not one line is changed or one word is changed from that quran and todays quran.

To Gunnar.......well....you were saying that muslims provoked a lion like US which could destroy every state in middle east........tell me....if they wanted to find osama then that was ok bcuz he is a terrorist but why kill innocent civilians in afghanistan........why attack Iraq who had nothin to do with 9/11 attacks and your govt admits that they did not even have a threat from Iraq..........why then attack iraq....oil maybe???/ blood for oil......now thats a real cool move by a lion...........

To the people who killed Van goug .........they should be punished serverly for killing another man......but the people who are attacking mosques and schools should be punished equally.

Hello guys, it seems to me a lot of you are paranoid of a certain idealogy, what have you been smoking !Too much CNN, FOX news, better say BUSH-news, Al-Jazeera news, Dutch news( out of proportion, instead of focusing on the real issue, the people in power tried to print thier names to make themselves noticable, at the end this is the news that sells, let's be realistic).

The real paranoia should come form the new-conseravtives in the US, mainly the present US foriegn policies around the world, they are the real threat, the mission is a world corporate domination, they claim that they want to rearrange the world ?!. They polarized the world by the great injustices they have supported and created. If the small fraction of a minority "religion" or an "idealogy" is targeted because of "National interests" then they are just a tool to divert attention from the real intentions, they are just back with reganean style, does everybody still remmeber the Vitenam war ?! We tend to forget very easily, it is very easy to forget the lies of yesterday. Now we have a new appealing media evil characters, bin laden, Hussien and everybody that doesn't obey the master, both the Laden and Hussien were first aided by the US, only when they did a big mistake,they did not obey the Matser, they have been black-listed, notice when Hussien gased a whole Kurdish villages, he was still a good friend of old US-administration. Those from the US who believe in the Bush-administration( they do not see the real picture yet and if by chance it comes to question, they will screen it, are just as those who believe in the Laden, they are both dangerous, one is in the form of group terrorism and the other is STATE-terrorism, The US foriegn policies are the ultimate state-terrorism accomapanied with huge media support, at the end, who owns the biggest newspapers and biggest TV stations, The corporatre, the big OIL, WEAPONS and military compounds, these revenues have to achieve thier profits, who cares about the poor people in Asia, mideast, Africa. Let's just talk from our beneficial point of view, focus on our own interests and defend them in that frame. Otherwise we will enter the moral dilemma of injustice, there is nothing in politcis that talk about justice. In practice, Politics is the game of the powerful, if you are not powerful enough, do not even bother being on a debating-table because you will only remind us of how miserable you are.

What I put beforehand is imporatant in this debate, because OBJECTIVITY is missing and people who prefere war than debate are just impatient and are more dangerous that ingnorant illetriate person, they are smart enough to know how to defend thier arguments but they are dillusioned enough to believe what they see/want to see everyday on the news or what is intending to send. Basically, there are two parts of any ideolgy, the theoretical( bible, quran,.. political agenda, Americanism, arabism.. and the practical part;institutions that derive thier power from these ideolegies; it is hard to blame the followers of the main idealogy or to idealogies derived/diverted from it, among these are fanatic extreme ones which are adapted at times of war or threat( Neo-conseravtism is one of them, Jihadist is one of them).

There is more to the tension in the previous debates than a debate about a film and director or a film and supporters, there is a provaction on a higher grounds. We should just stop the blame-game and stop following all these dark-media that only create anger and fear,not only of ecah other but the fear in oneself.

We ALL agree to some extent that you are entitled to your opinion in non-threatning environment. Those in this discussion from the US, how would you like your goverment supporting dictarors all over the world ( where is the freedom of speech ..?!!), in countries like Haitti, Nicagragua, Chile, Iraq when was under Saddam ... I can not just start counting those countries... and your goveremnt will continue to do so under the slogan (National interest= corporate interest).
You should read about the history of the american foriegn policies in Latin America and south east asia, ( policies when the the former USSR did not or plan to intervene in the cold-war era) middle east before talking about a tiny little atrocity committed by a single indivisual in a fellow ally country. One cause of extremism is the unbalanced, unjustice created by these policies, of course you will have a local IMAM who could (benefit/or truly belief) from/in such injustices, he can create a radical groups or radical ideolegies directly or indirectly as the case in the policies conducted by the world leading powers.
You can not isolate this incident from the bigger one( It is all started crystallizing after the collapse of the soviet union and 9/11(injustice was there before but was balanced by support of different players in the cold war). 9/11 was the golden opportunity of this admistration to play it is game, viva la ben laden, i would immagine them saying, that what we were waitting for.... the 2nd large resevior of oils is ours.

With great power comes a great resposibility and hopefully non-of-you is in that position yet. You scare me guys, some of you are really into this shit and in no-time maybe your kid is gonna be the next Hilter or Laden or even Bush.

Bascially, the communication between the upcomming generation shuld be more peaceful, rational, not polluted with hidden agenda or hatred or fear. Greed, argonace, selfishness is what diriving the world mad, can you really look at a map and tell what is happening in a country which other than is shown in your TV screen, can you create your opnion about a conflict which did reach through the main news-channels ?!!

9/11 was the golden opportunity of this admistration to play it is game, viva la ben laden, i would immagine them saying, that what we were waitting for.... the 2nd large resevior of oils is ours.

You couldn't possibly support this wild eyed conspiracy theory with any facts or evidence. That your supposition is based on falsehood is easily demonstrated: the ownership of Iraqi Oil has not been transferred to the US government.

Since you seem particularly ignorant, I'll let you in on common knowledge: The US is a free enterprise system. US citizens buy their oil-derived products from private entities. They buy them on the open market. The US govt buys oil on the open market for it's own operations, and also for the national reserves. Is it your theory that the US govt has nationalized the oil reserves of Iraq and transferred them to a private US entity? What are you smoking fraulein?

To put this into perspective:

During December 2002, the United States imported 11.3 million barrels of oil from Iraq. In comparison, imports from other major OPEC oil-producing countries during December 2002 included:

Saudi Arabia - 56.2 million barrels
Venezuela 20.2 million barrels
Nigeria 19.3 million barrels
Kuwait - 5.9 million barrels
Algeria - 1.2 million barrels

Leading imports from non-OPEC countries during December 2002 included:

Canada 46.2 million barrels
Mexico 53.8 million barrels
United Kingdom 11.7 million barrels
Norway 4.5 million barrels

By your logic, wouldn't it make more sense for the US to over-run the canadians? We get a lot more oil from them, the logistics would be easier, they are almost defenseless, and the result would be one contiguous USA.

With great power comes a great resposibility and hopefully non-of-you is in that position yet. You scare me guys, some of you are really into this shit and in no-time maybe your kid is gonna be the next Hilter or Laden or even Bush.

The really scary part is that your sense of morality is so distorted and dysfunctional that you can make a moral equivalence between Hitler and Bush.

Judy,

Those in this discussion from the US, how would you like your goverment supporting dictarors [sic] all over the world

Actually, if the choice was between a dictator that supported the soviet union and one that would support the US, americans would rather have our agents arrange for the US guy. You mention Saddam, but fail to mention that his party, the baathists were brought to power by Nazis, and that the regime prior to Saddam was rabidly pro soviet and communist. I can't think of any situation where the US has ousted a pro-freedom, pro-democracy govt in favor of a dictatorship.

And as for the changes in the US political landscape, it's being caused by a rejection of overly programmed news:

This new media makes news, national priorities, and fact-checking a much more democratic thing, giving all consumers of news—all citizens—a new birthright to their democracy and to their citizenship. It empowers all of us with the ability to find the truth of a story or a claim, to make judgments rather than have judgments made for us. I do not know if the mainstream media will adapt to their new competition but it is my hope that they at least understand who their new competition is. It is not a new multinational corporation, a stronger watt antenna, or a new satellite. It is the conglomerate of the American people, a busy and curious people, who have now been emboldened to take back the power of the news, opinions, and facts they choose to read, hear, and prioritize. It is a conglomerate that is more diverse, more experienced, and smarter than the Big Three or the Old Gray Lady. It is growing and getting better all the time because more citizens are turning to it, taking responsibility for it, and challenging themselves and others with it. It is a very bottom up process, a very democratic process. This new media gives us all not only more and better information but more and better democracy. In the end, it is a very American thing.

William J. Bennett
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-12_6_04_WB.html

I agree with all that, except the implication that it can only happen in America. I assert that the same thing can and will happen in Europe, unless the forces of evil succeed in swallowing Europe back into jew hatred and totalitarianism.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, two Russian filmmakers made a documentary about Freud. In it, Freud predicted that after Stalin stopped killing the "bourgeoise", he would keep killing--moving on to the "proletariat".

As long as the "enemy" is "them", the killing will continue. That goes for the Muslims...and it goes for all those who want to blame the Islam for being evil at its root.

I am a Jew and I know well what it means to be hated--and, yes, by Muslims. But, the only way it will stop is with me--in my life.

That is not to say we don't go after the terrorists, but we must, for all our sakes find a way to talk with each other, end the disparity between rich and poor and protect the rights of the innocent--women and children.

The nuclear genie is out of the bottle. One dirty bomb can spoil your whole day. So let's begin by taking down the rhetoric in public forums.

I can't stand what Bush has done and I believe he stole his first election. But I would never condone violence against him, or those who support him. But I will work to take my country back.

I am a Muslim girl. I guess if this movie talks about abuse against women, then it is relevant to me and I am most eligible to speak here.

There is a huge difference between religion and culture. Between religion and the practices associated with it. Islam is a beautiful religion that teaches us to be tolerant and patient and forgiving. If there is abuse happening against women (If) then why do we blame religion? why don’t we blame ignorance? lack of education? stupid practices?
I am a Muslim, highly educated girl and I enjoy my freedom and my life and I am very well treated by men in my society and never been abused. Does this make me a minority? No. There are millions like me but unfortunately the western world is not aware of us because "some" like to pinpoint just the bad examples and blame Islam for it. Myself, my friends, my family, my neighbors, are all educated working women and we enjoy life and healthy relations with men and family members and WE ARE MUSLIMS and proud to be. Besides, there are so many crimes (rape and assault) undertaken by Christians and Jews in my country, why aren’t we attacking these religions too?
So, from a girl/woman to all of you a message:
Yes abuse does exist, but it exists among societies all over the world regardless of religious beliefs. Stop attacking Islam out of ignorance. Read. Study. Research. Interact with societies and be tolerant and the world, only then, will be a better place. Thank you.

يا أختي العزيزة ....أسالاام أليكم

Salaams dear Sister Chada/ egypt,

you wrote:

"I am a Muslim girl. I guess if this movie talks about abuse against women, then it is relevant to me and I am most eligible to speak here"....honey, yes this movie is most relevant to you, especially you being a muslim girl....no, YOU ARE CERTAINLY NOT THE MOST ELIGIBLE PERSON TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE MILLIONS OF SUFFERING FEMALES UNDER THE YOKE OF ISLAM..and all my friends,Noraini, Zainab, Fatimah, Joleh , Khadijah and others living in free democratic societies will attest to that. Where have you been hiding all this years, you have eyes that do not see, ears that do not hear...ever heard of the stockholm syndrome...YOU YOURSELF ARE AN HOSTAGE TO A MISOGYNIST ISLAMIST SOCIETY INTO WHICH YOU WERE BORN !!! It is the likes of You that keep apologizing for an intransigent mullahCracy -that keeps women in their place and forbid the flowering of their full potential as human beings- that impedes revolutionary changes for women's rights and perpetuate the status of women as chattels in misogynist islamist societies. As a sister talking to another sister - i accuse you of being part and parcel of the whole problem.

Now here is an excellent essay on Women, shariah and oppression written by a muslim women Saraji Umm Zaid. This article is directed especially to meek , ignorant and apologistic muslim females like you whose acquiesence in the face of humiliation does further damage to the body of Womanhood world-wide ( and believe me i am not speaking proudly from ethnicity either, cos Korea is a pretty patriarchal society and much rehabilitation of korean misogyny is in line..but certainly the issue of patriachy in Korean society or for that matter society at at large is nothing compared to the sinful perpetration of theocratic institutionalized abuse and enslavement of the body, mind and soul of women in islamdom )

o.k. everybody read this--->

http://www.islamfortoday.com/ummzaid06.htm

HERE IS ANOTHER ARTICLE THAT ARGUES THAT SEPARATION OF MOSQUE AND STATE IS THE ONLY WAY FOR MUSLIM WOMEN TO BE LIBERATED ( SO MUCH FOR YOUR BEAUTIFUL RELIGION HAAAAH :( )

READ THIS--->
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/kamguian_23_4.htm

HERE IS ANOTHER WONDERFUL SITE BY IRSHAD MANJI REGARDING WOMEN AND THE 'BEAUTIFUL' RELIGION OF ISLAM :

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/

FINALLY HERE IS A HORROR STORY THAT ALL MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM WOMEN SHOULD READ -- GRAPHIC FOTOS OF TORTURE OF MUSLIM WOMAN:

http://knowislam.info/drupal/horror

Shukran
Takk
شكرًا
대단히 감사합니다

Angel of Truth
Anjo de Verdade
ملاك الحقيقة
真相天使

this is a belated rebuttal to the post by Oanan, PK (pakistan?) from above. He stated that those terrorists are not muslims, otherwise they would not have killed innocent people...that islamist terrorists are really not muslims, because they do not follow the teachings of Islam which is a peaceful religion...ha ha ha ha ha....Oanan, either you are trying to be comical, extremely naive of your own religion or engaging in dissimulation ...i suspect you are engaging in dissimulation a form of "taquiyyah" which is taught you consciously and unconsciously as part of your islamist indoctrination ( otherwise you are an apologist, leftist or plain islamist sympathiser who knows insufficient islam to make qualifying statement about this dangerous superCult. The whole ethos of the islamic world has been one of strife , subjugation ,murder and mayhem.....yes since the inception of the Cult 1400 yrs ago. The religion was founded on violence ...with the sword was it born and by the sword shall it die. Many people who are not familiar with islamism should also be aware that the ummah has 2 obligations the general 'fardh' and special 'fardh' ( fardh =obligations)...for those who can and desire the quickest assurance of eternal paradise in allah's kingdom, martyrdom in strife for allah is the ideal way. Those who cannot can strife with their words, pen, or their heart and yet with the permission to engage in dissimulation the majority of the ummah can dissociate themselves from any heinous crime commited by the special fardh-ists ( special operatives like the mujahideen) and condemn them as unislamic and not representing the 'true islam' while secretly in their heart these non combatant islamists rejoice with mirth and glee as to the damage done to the infidels (!). And that is the passing-buck-game that the islamists are such adroit at. Everytime a bunch of their co-religionist commit murder or terrorism, the rest of the non-combatant members of the Ummah would quickly rally together to do publicity stunt, declaring that those wicked terrorists have hijacked islam and that they are not real muslims , because real muslims are peaceful and do not kill innocent people. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH, THE TERRORISTS ARE VERY PIOUS AND GOOD MUSLIMS, OSAMA BIN LADIN AND HIS ILK ARE GOOD AND PIOUS MUSLIM..THEY RIGOROUSLY FOLLOW THE DEMONIC INJUNCTIONS OF THE QURANIC TEXTS TO BELEAGUER THE ENEMIES AND STRIKE THEM AT THE NECK , AND TO MAKE A WIDE SLAUGHTER IN THE LAND AGAINST THE ENEMIES OF ALLAH !...People like Oanan , PK who would have us believe otherwise are hoping that we are naive enuf to buy into his nonsense about the fact that Osamas and his clones are bad muslim..no sirree, Osama is a good muslim, it is people like Oanan/PK who are making apologist statements that are bad muslims ( or at least lip service muslims) who do not read their own unholy book well LOL.

YES CHRISTIANS HAVE COMMITED ATROCITIES IN THE PAST, BUT THEY DID SO IN CONTRADICTION TO THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES AND INJUNCTIONS TO DO GOOD, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOURS AND TO SHOW KINDNESS AND COMPASSION TO ALL. ON THE OTHER HAND WHEN MUSLIMS DO HEINOUS DEEDS, KILL, MURDER , SLAUGHTER ...THEY ARE DOING ALL THISE EVIL THINGS IN OBEDIENCE TO AND IN FULFILLMENT OF THEIR QURANIC SCRIPTURES WHICH COMMAND THEM TO KILL AND ANNIHILATE THE NON BELIEVERS/INFIDELS ( THE REST OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD I.E. )...FOR THE QURAN IMPLIES THAT IT IS BETTER TO BE A 'MUJAHID' /WARRIOR THAN A MOOKMEEN ( PASSIVE BELIEVER ).

Angel of Truth
Anjo de Verdade
真相天使
ملاك الحقيقة

very good movie shows the real color of islam.

Waw, The person Kim Sook-Im,US, is filled with hatred, scary stuff, I think that you should get consider councelling and mental threapy. Never seen such hatred before, this is also combined with sick racist accusations. You are ann extrimst yourself. instead of understanding and solving the problem, just create a propaganda and hatred, pretty sick, shame on you. Take a break and do some positive activites, why this slavery to mind games ?!

....أسالاام أليكم/Salaams JORDAN-ANTI-PROPAGANDA....
HMMMMM WHAT A CUTE NAME, pretty much tells me what your intent is ...to dicredit others that tell the truth . Honey , i am the angel of truth ملاك الحقيقة and you darn know it ..so thats probably what's eating at you isn't it. Now concerning hatred, bigotry/religious or otherwise, misogyny etc..all that scary stuff that you mentioned - isn't that what muslims are taught day in and day out. Obviously you are an agent provocateur, sly anti-propagandist for your 'religion' /cult or else you are a bad muslim who knows little of your scriptures ( which teaches hate ,divide the world into believers and infidels and instructs on how to destroy infidels as a holy mandate). Also accusing me of racism holds no water-- you and I know that islam is not a race, you sly dog -- all you islamist propagandists are such sly creatures trying to use the 'race' bait to deflect criticism from the real issue at hand ( islam is a violent warrior cult bent on destroying noncult members and denigrating women ). How can criticising the behaviours of islamists be termed racists when islamists come in all shades and sizes ( and yes regretfully also in gender -cos the females have been conditioned since young to accept their subhuma and subservient position. Women do not have much work or career opportunities in islamic countries other than marriage and domestic chores -becoming dependent on the male and subservient to the male, all the shariah laws are stacked against her, she is a mere incubator for his progenies, that is why she has to tolerate other wives in the household, because upon divorce she could be thrown out into the streets and given nothing more than her 'mahr' or prenuptial dowry/which could amount to nothing more than a dress !.

And darling Jordan, while we are at the subject of women in islam , would you be so kind as to urgently request your oh so kind and compassionate co-religionist to write to the draconian iranian authorities to refrain from stoning to death this poor iranian women who had been accused of a sexual indiscretion outside of marriage ( you see just an accusation is sufficient for the women to be stoned, ohhh the man - he get's off scott free..what a wonderful and egalitarian law this shariah business is LOL ...now if you want to know what is sick ..this is sick JORDAN -- YOU WITH ME ???? )

JORDAN IF YOU ARE AS HUMANE AS YOU CLAIM TELL YOUR CO RELLIGIONIST TO WRITE TO PRESIDENT KHATAMI , ASK HIM TO STOP THE STONING OF HAJIYEH ESMAELVAND BE YRS END. EVERYONE WHO CHERISHES FAIR PLAY AND WISHES TO REGISTER THEIR DISGUST AND PROTESTATION AGAINST SUCH BARBARIC TREATMENT OF WOMEN PLEASE SEND THIS PETITION ! A WOMAN'S LIFE DEPENDS ON YOUR GOODWILL. ONE MORE WOMAN'S DEATH FROM STONING IS ONE DEATH TOO MANY !

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/412151150.htm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/stoning.htm (GRAPHIC PICTURE OF WOMAN BEING BURIED AND PREPARED FOR STONING ..NOT FOR THE WEAK OF STOMACH )

ANGEL OF TRUTH AND JUSTICE

ANJO DE VERDADE E JUSTICA

salaams osman/pakistan

I came late onto this thread and cannot help noticeing your statements as such:

"How would a christian feel if verses of the old testament are engraved on the body of nude nun?? how would a jew feel if a body of a nude girl is engraved with verses of Torah and she is praying in front of the wailing wall???"

well Osman, what is wrong with writing verses from the Quran on a womens body..is it alright if vrses from the quran were written on a man's body?...why ,what is wrong with a women's body, is it , or could it be that you have internalized your religions degradation of women to such an extreme that the mere thought of some ancient wordage on her body is considered unacceptable. Is it or could it be that in your mind you associate a women's body with 'filthyness', uncleanness, 'inferiority' and that it is not worthy as a tapestry for the inscribing of the quranic texts?.....but oh..it is ok. for a woman's body to serve as an incubator to produce more misogynist creatures like a large % of male islamdom ..right? Yes there are women abuse in other cultures and religions but none compares in scope and viciousness as the institutionalize denigration of women as found in islamdom...why your very own brigand of a prophet says that women are lacking in intelligence ! and since you emulate your prophet what can we expect of people like you and your kind ..really , Until and unless we see a large movement in islamdom to disavow the hateful injunctions in the quranic texts, hadith and sunna regarding the denigration and 2nd class status of women,.......i would advise women of the world to beware this despicable cult which major tenet is denigration of women, aside from liquidation of nonbelievers( AND IF YOU DENY THE 2ND PART OF MY STATEMENT SHOW ME PROOF OF ANY MAJOR ISLAMIST AUTHORITY THAT HAS AS YET DISAVOW THOSE QURANIC INJUNCTIONS REGARDING THE SUBJUGATION AND LIQUIDATION OF NON BELIEVERS IE. NON CULT MEMBERS lol )

ملاك الحقيقة و العدل لنساء العالم
Angel of truth and justice for women of the world
真相和正義天使為世界的婦女
ANJO DA VERDADE E DA JUSTIÇA PARA MULHERES DO MUNDO

oh salaams again Jordan and Osman, kayfa halukum?
I am surmising from your writings that both of you are rather ignorant about your own religion/cult, and very likely are muslims by birth and nationality ( in islam you are born muslim and you cannot leave the cult, cos apostasy is many times punishable by death ---wont you call that a cult? religions don't put people to death for leaving the religion, Cults do that !)

عثمان و الأردنّ, كم مرّة قرأت القرآن كلاهما ؟ هل تعرف أن الملايين من النّساء في البلاد الإسلاميّة يعانين من الاكتئاب ؟ في البلاد الإسلاميّة عندما وُلِدَتْ المرأة هي ملكيّة أبيها . عندما تصبح بالغًا هي تُزَوَّج إلى رجل و تصبح ملكيّة زوجها . عندما تكون قديمةً تصبح ملكيّة ابنها . ليس لديها أيّ هويّة ....هي دائمًا ابنة شخص, زوجة الشّخص, أمّ الشّخص ......هي ابنة عثمان, هي زوجة عبدالله, هي أمّ محمد . هي دائمًا ملكيّة بعض عضو للأسرة . وجودها الوحيد هو تقديم ذكور عائلتها, هي عبد, ليس لديها أيّ هويّة . ذلك هو غرض حياتها الوحيد .....السبب الوحيد أنها كانت متحمّلة و سُمِحَتَة للعيشة ....هذا هو السّجن الذي قد عرضه اسلام .... معظم حياة بائسة, فقط لأنها أنثى !!!

في المجتمع المسلم أكبر نجاح الذي تأمل امرأة له هو الكون متزوّجًا و لإنجاب ولد . إذا أنجبت امرأة بنتًا هو عار عليها و على عائلتها !. امرأة مسلمة تُدَان بدينها و تقاليدها لعيش حياة غير محقّقة ...حياة متوسّطة .... حياة يأس هادئ .... حياة عبوديّة و عبوديّة إلى أعضاء مجتمعها الذّكريّين ...ليس لديها فرصة لتطوير نفسها إلى إمكانيّتها الكاملة . نحن مواطنو العالم الحرّ يتّهمونك و دينك و مجتمعك و تقليدك لعدم الامتلاك الشّجاعة للتّغيّر ....نتّهمك بأسر نصف البشريّة . يطير الطّائر بجناحين, إذا جناح واحد مكسور, كيف يمكن لذلك الطّائر أن يطير ؟?? مجتمعك مريض, معطّل و محتاج ليلتئم للجناح الآخر, حتّى مثل طائر يمكن أن يطير ثانية و ينضمّ إلى باقي البشريّة . كن شجاعًا لا يتعلّق بالتّقاليد الضّارية . لا تستمع للملّا و الآية الله الجاهلة ..حتّى القرآنك يأمرك أن تستخدم عقلك, أن تستخدم ذكاءك و أن تستخدم مخّك . لماذا تتمنّى أن تتبع المنافقين و الرّجال المذنبين الذين يتظاهرون بمعرفة اللّه على نحو أعمى عندما لا يصدّقون أنفسهم ما يعظونه ؟

اقرأ الصفحات الإلكترونيّة التّالية لبعض الأمثلة من كيف امرأة تنجو في
بلد إسلاميّ

(Osman and Jordan, how often do you both read the quran ? Do you know that millions of women in islamic countries suffer from depression? In islamic countries when a woman is born she is the property of her father. When she becomes an adult she is married off to a man and becomes the property of her husband. When she is old she becomes the property of her son. She has no identity....she is always someone's daughter, someone's wife, someones mother......she is Othman's daughter, she is abdullah's wife, she is mohammad's mother. She is always the property of some male member of the household. Her only existence is to serve the males of her family , she is a slave , she has no identity. That is the sole purpose of her life.....the only reason that she was born and allowed to live ....such is the prison that Islam has offered her .... a most wretched life, just because she is a female !!!

In muslim society the greatest success that a woman hopes for is to get married and to give birth to a boy. If a woman gives birth to a girl it is a disgrace to her and to her family !. A muslim woman is condemned by her religion and her traditions to live an unfulfilled life...a mediocre life.... a life of quiet desperation.... a life of servitude and slavery to the male members of her society...she does not have the opportunity to develop herself to her full potential . We citizens of the free world accuse you and your religion and your society and your tradition for not having the courage to change ....we accuse you of enslaving half of humanity. A bird flies with two wings, if one wing is broken , how can that bird fly??? Your society is sick, broken and in need of healing of the other wing , so that like a bird it can fly again and join the rest of humanity. Be brave do not cling to traditions that are harmful. Do not listen to the ignorant mullahs and ayatollahs ..Even Your Quran commands you to use your mind, to use your intelligence and to use your brain. Why do you wish to blindly follow hypocrites and sinful men who pretend to know God when they themselves do not believe what they preach ?

Read the following web-sites for some examples of how a woman survives in an islamic country )------------>
--------------------->
--------------------------------->

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AyeshaAhmed30802.htm

( high prestige and status of women in Islam -- I think not LOL )

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/Hikmat10201.htm ( status of women in islam )

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SherKhan41218.htm

( can you imagine their hadith sahih of bukhari itself says that 'women are donkeys' ! and chada of egypt and jordan and osman will have us believe that their religion is such a beautiful religion , and so kind and friendly to women LOL LOL LOL ROFL )

진실과 공정의 여성 천사

A woman angel of Truth and Justice

ملاك المرأة للحقيقة و العدل

anjo fêmea da verdade e da justiça

真相和正義女性天使

Do not you get KIM DOUK-IM,

You are blaming the ISLAM or whatever religion that is old in nature, I could agree with you on many points that suppression of women in any society or in any ideolegy that discriminate agianst human or particularly women is totaly wrong and uncivilized( it is still in the human nature appartently), male dominanace and terratorial thiniking is a natural male animalistic instinct which is suprresed or changed by a civil and sociological structures. When ISLAM came, it was a way of helping the poor and way of changing habbits that were more abusive of women, I will not display Mohamed and followers as angels but at the time they were a hope even for the women at that time, I agree with you that the new radicalism of any sort of religious or political forms are wrong and should not be tolerated, You classify yourself as from the free world and prouudly presenting yourself as a woman who wants all the female of the world to be free like you, what you do not realize is that it is of the intrest of the "" free world"" to keep the ""non-free world"" non-free and even support whoever in power in this "other world" and agree to the flow of resourses to the free world. It is the history and politic of the after world-war II that should be looked upon, IN Iran and afghanistan where you would most eager to talk about the misfortune of women, It was your "free world" whom supported the shah and
who manufactured the "Taliban", and I presume you are surprised but it is easier to blame the victims, they are wrong anyway, they are just backward idiots, animals... We should keep them that way, otherwise they will know they have rights and start asking, why are you stealing our resourses. Who is the biggest support of the Royal family the Saudi arabia( those rich women-abusers ?!!, who wants them to be in power and will continue to do so ?! The new powers in the world do not want the 'backward' part to wake up.

Thank you for your effort to try to liberate the women of the world but you are hitting the wrong spot to some extent, your rage is directed against whom ?! The IMAMS, PREACHERS, DICTATORSHIP(s), ...

You should also be angry and outraged by the lies the constant media presenting and twisting facts to benefit the richer, stronger .. at the end, who
writes history and who owns the media, who is controllong the masses. When you have a cancer you
can kill and cure a few cells but if you want to to eliminate the cancer you have to change your habits and the reason that is causing it, your approach is go laser the affected cells( it works temporarily and it is possible that if spread, you will not able to stop it when it is too late.

Religion is becomming more a form of tradition in most of the world and even in a large part of the arabic world, religion is not so strict, there is a form of backward views but only rarely does it become as you desribe the suffering of the women under ISLAM or what is changed to, It is the same with christianity as you praise it, only 30 years ago, chritianity was very conservative , christainty changed to a more tolerate form and now it is the moral values that are replacing older religious virtues, some of them is evoleved and other is left backward but this is the PROBLEM, only the POOR and the crushed part of the world is left to be controlled by religion, when you have no hope left in your life, what do you expect the person to seek or do, it is easy to lead
a person with no hope to abuse others and even kill himself ( seeking immoratlity !!).

To change habbits and society, you should not only
go pin-points how wrong and bad they are, you do want to help, start looking at the part of the world that you are at and start saying no to the giant greedy corporates and the adminstartion who support them at your land, If you really want to help women or human, start telling your politicians to stop supporting the few elite that get all the fortune and leave the rest of the people with fear, poverty and slavery to illusion of relgion. You are blaming the victims again ( the man abusing his wife is again a victim. ( no relgion teaches 'abuse', it could be that it still gave supriortity to male ( historical) over female, at the time it was till something to appeal to the mentality of the masses at the time ... If you want people to follow your teaching( the men that would go to war to spread the messege, you would give them extra advantages, they are the one whom fighting the war at the end.
( I do not justify war as to spread ideolgy, but at the time that was the trend ...)))

Some Muslims ( an example dosen't prove a fact), in the advanced world are turnned to extremism as well, this is another story ( Th van Gogh story is a story of a suprressed woman( the writer) who managed to flee Sudan ( again, a crushed poor country )when she was supressed by the male islamic culture, she poured her revenge on the ISLAM as a whole, even in the Netherlands when locals have problems with 2nd, 3rd generation youth. She used the freedom of speech as a slogan and directed her anger at something which is scared to the minority whom are already looked down upon and discriminated because they are different, sometime they are not very respectful of the local habbits( this a whole new problem; acually, the Marrocans and the Turkish whom immigrated two or three genertaions ago are more committed and more seriuos about thier religion than muslims in thier own land, mainly because they ghave an identity crisis and mainly because of the views of the man-woman relation that are preserved from thier gandpartents ( they are more "non-up-beat", if you want to compare them to ones who lives in Ankara or Casa blanca) but this is again a historical problem that is comming to the surface now, who were those immigrants, they were the cheap uneductaed labor, the purpose is to use them to help the country after the second-world war but the "problem" is that they did not leave the contry after they have done all the dirty work, they stayed to remind the country that theu are still here with thier "SCARY" views about the western society, and the biggest problem is that the goverment(s) kept that way, they did not try to integrate the new commers at the time, you can not force people to change thier relgion but you could make people
debate and show them some interest, they go to thier own schools and we go to our own, we are different, that is scary...?! If neigbours do not have the courage to talk to thier niegbours because they dress up differently, how can you break this barriers, those were the questions that should have been initated before somebody comes and touch the most edgy part of the problem, and the dimension of the murder of theo van gogh is just bigger than the context of freedom of speech,

It has a historical a political diminsion to it, All of the unspoken words and the different point of views and the lack of actions on both sides led to an explosive situation, Already started with the assasination of pim fortuyn( the murder was committed by a the dutch man of a dutch origin, so this did not provoke the already implicit problems between 2nd-third generation muslims and the dutch,

After that came the IRAQ war and I think muslim over the world thought that they are targeted, because of the manufactring of the new enemy, the real terrorists that are few have been allowed to speak on the behalf of the whole community, you should not be surprised that they have simpathizers, the crushed and the undefended would seek any hope
or anybody that "claim" to be the HERO( the liberators, terrorists( notice they are terrorists only when they have disobyed the master, they were terrorist before the twin towers, .. whatever you call them... they were allies against bigger danger ?!! ( we change doctrines, we forget about our mistakes and we keep the wrongs of the others::: it will continue like this with the US forgien policies,, PRETTY HYPOCRITICAL, isn't).

The US foreign policies ( not to be confused with the normal guy walking in the street, but the man with money and big interest to have more and more and more ....) have also created a great injustices in a lot of the world and it will continue to do so as along as it can.,

The US ploicies manufacuted the assosiation bewteen terrosim and Islam because this will help the media to cover up the occupation of IRAQ as it is the case in ISRAEL will the help the idioligists to stamp the resistance to occupation in Palstine as terrorism and the same way will help Putin allowing the military to go in chechnya and hide under the umbrella that we are fighing terrorism,, It is quite trendy at the moment and it fits the international political agenda of the most powerful. In Summery, the murder of Theo Van gogh is caused by a flame of local and international conflicts, as well as by his mother death which led a man at a quite young age to become radical in his views because of the confusion that has been created under different conflicts, would not you be confused if you were him? here we do not justify murder, but we blame as well the bigger murderer(s), a three or four decades of continuing injustices ( war and unjust foreign policies; where is the freedom of speech) over the world, so for the great power players and for the masses( who want somebody else to do thier job; think for yourself
and if you feeling supressed, do not go revenge from innocent ( or maybe better say the lazy naives) and to the masses, wake up ....

Jacob, Cape Town . . .

Ho hum. Yawn..... Still playing the victim card? Well get back to us when you have something useful to say.

Yours truly,

Totoro, U.S. citizen and voter

Jacob:

Oh, please. There is no need to manufacture a link between terrorism and Islam. Even forgetting Mohammed's actions, Islamic terrorism has been going on for decades before it became the Topic Of The Day. It was simply more or less ignored because Nazism and Communism were seen as the greater immediate threats.

It's true that American foreign policy is quite flawed, but to point to it as the reason for the Third World's failures is laughable. Particularly in the Middle East, where they were solidly behind the Nazis and gobbled up Communist propaganda as well (although they didn't like its atheistic bent). Having been on the wrong side of the two great conflicts of the 20th century, is it any wonder they are so, well... fucked? If America were rich and isolationist instead of rich and interventionist, we would still be hated as "arrogant." The resentment would still foment the same demented conspiracy theories. And religious fundamentalism would still be alive and well in failed or failing states, just as it has been for centuries and will be into the foreseeable future. "The man who beats his wife is also a victim"... how laughable.

As far as "creating the Taliban" (highly disputable), supporting the Shah, helping to Saddam to power, or any other such moves on the part of the US, when it was a choice between Pro-Russian Nutjob and Anti-Russian Nutjob, I think it was a no-brainer when looked at in context of the Cold War. But as so much of the world has consistently been on the wrong side of the major ideological conflicts of the past century, I think it's about time to leave them to their own devices and let them rot without anymore U.S. aid money (you know, since we only use foreign aid as leverage to control people's minds, anyway... which somehow explains the rampant anti-Americanism in the world, I guess).

Jeff

Hey, American dudes, typical from you to hide behind the Cold war and say it was against soviet or communist threat, this is very laughable to me, what about Nicaragua, Tahiti, Venzuella, ..., Central America, south east Asia. Jeff, Because you are Jewish, you do not have to punish the middle East for your claim that they supported the Nazis,Totally non-sense...

No-person even now with the israli-palestinian conflict supported the Nazis actions !
It is so used nowadays that anybody disagree with the Istalii (and hence The US total support, strategic ally in the region that secure oil ( 2nd OIL resvior( do not measure with import/export equation, the power who have the oil have extra strategic strength in the region and worldwide, jewish lobby in the US is very strong, Tanks and hi-tech helicopters targetting villages and buildings, rockets against civilain targets..., expansion, buliding cantons which are in practice like isolating or prisioning a whole neighbourhood, collective punsihment, isn't it another mass murder, isn't it genocide)) ... any body disagree with the POLICIES of the 'Jewish state' is labled ant--semtic, come on dudes, stop this double standard and forget about the religious hatred, and forget about your heroic role defending your country and the FLAG, you are only defending the interest of the corporate, you are expandible as well, maybe not like somebody from the third world but is happening now, Comapnies are moving to India, China, Cheaper Labour. Apparanley what matters to the voter is that he gets a Job a decent medical care ?!! and he will be silenced, why the headache in interfering the business of the money/power maker... Just tell us a good lie that we sleep good ... as long as we do not see the head of the fish taken off, we still can eat it ...

Unless of course you are of the intellectual elites, you are forgiven then because you are defending your interests.... intelectually, you are better than somebody who is born in China or Somalia, thank god that you born in the USA, the land of the cowboys and the blind hypocrates...
...

BUT do not go and bragg about that you are defending the democracy and you are liberating and pla pla ... Lie after lie after lie .... at the end I am afraid you gonna believe the lie, dude(s)..

You talk about democracy, whom are you choosing from, two rich candidates who studied in Hravered, whom dady is a billionare, unfortunatly, those dudes as well are only a puppets, the policies are already thier after the 2nd world-war and they did not cahnge as much, before you talk about democracy elsewhere, go vote for a real issues and real leaders.

And to tell the reader a bit about US policy makers manufacuting and misleading thier own people, here is a LINK .. just a flavor of the mass media lies and why is the world is turnned againt US military intervionism...

http://www.monthlyreview.org/0503chomsky.htm

This an interview with an MIT professor, by the way , he is also a Jew but somebody who is "objective" ...

Hey, American dudes, typical from you to hide behind the Cold war and say it was against soviet or communist threat, this is very laughable to me, what about Nicaragua, Tahiti, Venzuella, ..., Central America, south east Asia.

You're right. Communism is great. Would have been much better if America had done nothing.

Jeff, Because you are Jewish, you do not have to punish the middle East for your claim that they supported the Nazis,Totally non-sense...

I'm Jewish? News to me. How typical of you to assume that I am, though. You types who gnash your teeth about "the controlled masses" are all strangely similar. Oh, the irony.

Nor have I said we should punish the Middle East, so that's strike two on you. But there have to be reforms if they're going to be a part of the wider world, and they are in such a mess, I don't see these reforms coming without a lot of bloodshed.

No-person even now with the israli-palestinian conflict supported the Nazis actions !
It is so used nowadays that anybody disagree with the Istalii (and hence The US total support, strategic ally in the region that secure oil ( 2nd OIL resvior( do not measure with import/export equation, the power who have the oil have extra strategic strength in the region and worldwide, jewish lobby in the US is very strong, Tanks and hi-tech helicopters targetting villages and buildings, rockets against civilain targets..., expansion, buliding cantons which are in practice like isolating or prisioning a whole neighbourhood, collective punsihment, isn't it another mass murder, isn't it genocide)) ...

Again your view is very typical of your ilk. Because the Palestinians are an abject failure, they make great little pets for ridiculous leftists like you. Once upon a time, the leftists loved Israel to death, but they committed the unpardonable sin of succeeding. Now, instead of Israel attempting to strike at cowardly terrorists who hide amongst and endanger civilians, you claim Israel is attacking helpless refugees. News for you: if Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, it can. It has that ability. They don't because that's not their goal. If the Palestinians had the capability, they can and would use it to destroy Israel.

But, no, it's not genocide. What it is, though, is the Palestinians getting their asses handed to them, and yet they keep asking for more.

For America's part in it, I truly wish we'd just ignore the whole thing. It's Israel and Palestine's problem, and it should stop being ours. Why anybody who doesn't live there should care is beyond me. But between the Jewish lobby, the pro-Israel Christians, Muslims, and the uberleft, we are probably not going to be ignoring it any time soon. This is a great illustration of why multiculturalism is for shit.

This an interview with an MIT professor, by the way , he is also a Jew but somebody who is "objective" ...

LOL. So when a Jew is anti-America, anti-Israel, and a pro-terrorism Communist, he's "objective." I see.

Btw, referencing baldfaced hypocrites like Chomsky is strike three. You're out. :-)

I do not want to make this as a battle field but Chomsky is NOT anti-american, he is anti-american foreign policies ( Anti-admistrations whom are elected by the corporates rather than by the people, I did not hear answers from you about conducting real elections, Not a parade of media and presentations of heroic records in vietnam wars, you talk about a dream democracy that you do not have and yet you claim that the US wants to reform the rest of the world, get a grip, and start reforming yourself first, heroes of the 20th cenrury.

This an interview with an MIT professor, by the way , he is also a Jew but somebody who is "objective" ...

LOL. So when a Jew is anti-America, anti-Israel, and a pro-terrorism Communist, he's "objective." I see.

Btw, referencing baldfaced hypocrites like Chomsky is strike three. You're out. :-)

All this that you accuse this man ( Noam chomsky) of is because, apparantly, you seem too to be ingnorant, he is not against Israel or such, you should do some reading dude, read (Objectivity and Liberal Scholarshi, Middle East Illusion ....)He also talks about the influence of the media)...

This man did not take sides as you accuse him, that demonstrate that you are really talking as a believer( brain washed scholar for all the reasons, you say that we should mind our own business and not even interfere in other people's conflict, It is not our peoplem, that totally make sense for somebody like yourself( I thought that you wanted to bring democracy to the world ?!!, even though, the previous and present adminstartion(s) did not interfere because they love the people over there, it is just a great OIL resourses and they have to be controlled, simple as that, to guarantee the FLOW, things has to get stable and no other power has to interfere( I would be more appreciative if the real policies are explained to the people and the truth is shown, not show flag and the constitustion that you brag about and ask people to sware at and at the end, it is all illusion and deception.

You make the lie and I am afraid you believe it ...

And do you really understand the road map, peace process, doctrines that guarentees that Palestinians have no rights, and are even used by the Israeli corporates as a cheap labour.. not only take thier land but also benefit from them( Labour over thier was smarter than the present extreme right, they were doing the same thing but with less provocative media coverage.

But anyway, this of no interest to you, you stay in your castle and the food will keep comming to you because you are better than the rest because you have a strong military force,and if that is your equation i am sorry to say that, The world would have more respect for you if you just stop the lies to yourself and others, YOU ARE A SUPER POWER, OK but do not confuse the people overthere and in the rest of the world that you are seeking good for them, It is just that your military and hi-techm, oil ... comapnies wants to get the Lion share of the market and the distribution and any other power would have done, maybe, the same or even worse, the only problem is all the lies the comes with that....

How many Strikes should get on me before you admit that you live a hypocritical life ?!

Jacob,

Yes, Chomsky is (a) anti-American and (b) a hypocrite. He sung the praises of every single Communist mass murderer throughout history, saying that, "Although it is unpleasant, it is for the greater good." He has never once taken that stance with American foreign policy, because he is anti-capitalist and anti-American to the core.

However, quite frankly, your ranting is headache inducing and I cannot bear to decipher all of the above. You seem content to put words in my mouth, though, so have fun arguing with your straw man, and light up a doobie for Chomsky and the memory of Susan Sontag while you're at it. I'm out.

Jeff

Jeff,

You basically contradict yourself in the last two columns( responds).

You said :( about the Middle East )

'But there have to be reforms if they're going to be a part of the wider world, and they are in such a mess, I don't see these reforms coming without a lot of bloodshed.'

And then You quoted chomsky out of context ( I do not know which refrence and which text, I quote you from your own previuos respond).

You said:
"
Yes, Chomsky is (a) anti-American and (b) a hypocrite. He sung the praises of every single Communist mass murderer throughout history, saying that, "Although it is unpleasant, it is for the greater good." He has never once taken that stance with American foreign policy, because he is anti-capitalist and anti-American to the core."

Basically you said the SAME statement that you refrenced from him ( So, they are mass criminals when they are Communist and angels of democracy when they are capitalist!??)

Point, I am not agree-ing or disagree-ing with both statements; just want to show you your double standard judements.

I agree that Chomsky is anti-capitalist and anti-foreign policies that are unjust to world and the way they are presented to world and particulary to people who live in the US, this the stance anybody will take if he has the courage and the brain to stop manipulation of the masses by corporate culture who only think of a PROFIT as the priortity, soon enough, it would not make a difference if you are an american worker, indian worker or chineese worker, the modern slavery will extend to every citizen of the world if corporates decides to, you can already see it right now, for a corporate and a management in a comapny to be competitive, it can easily sack a whole low profitable branch( social bebefits varies from one country to another, why hire a european or an american when you can hire cheap asian ; they ask less money and no social benefits...

In summery, the corporates and the political power behind them would do anything that they can get away with if that gurantuees profit, notice that, in this equation ( people, miltiatry force, media,... are only a tools to achieve the purpose= PROFIT and INTERESTS. Forget about justice and fake democracy ( in a political power game, there is no room for justice, It is only when war and a huge injustices occurs, that these features become more apparant and then media( most financed and infuneced by the corporates will interfere to cover up the mess and the lies and mish-mash stories starts to divert attention from the real conflict(s) and we have only a buzz about the old story waitting for the next lie and cisis to come up.

jacob, Cape Town . . .

Time to put away your marxist books and magazines and study some basic economics. This subject has been discussed recently on Bjorn's blog, so scroll around and look for it.

OOO la la, Ciao extremist, right-wingers, leftists,islamists, mind terrorists, believers, hurt-women, happy women, reasnoable women, men with testostirone, females without one... :-) .

I wanna have a copy of this film through download from somebody... ??!

I think guys, you should get laid more often...

That is the solution to your problems, If you were busy having fun, you would not have the time nor this negativity nor would we have wars and hatred and greed,

I am the true angel of truth not KIM_SOUK whatever is that name is ( Is it your real name darling, maybe you can send me a photo of yours so we can meet one day and I would slap your funky ass, your fanatism turns me on baby.
Laura.

Hello Laura/Italy,
how are you. Glad you like my opinions. If you are a lesbian you should be twice as concern about the rising influence of islam in italy. Islam is a dangerous cult that enslaves your mind and body.

An excellent book that you should read is 'The trouble with Islam' written by Irshad Manji -- a very nice muslim lesbian :

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/

Thanks,
May the Goddess Saraswati be with you

Princess Bhagavatam
Temple of the Goddess Sri Sri Saraswati

印第安公主Bhagavatam........
女神Sri Sri Saraswati 的寺廟

VERY URGENT!!!

Hello guys,

I really tried to download the torrect movie-file after I`d made all of the steps described on the Web-Site, but the file seems to be unavaliable.
Please, if anybody posesses the movie-file, email it to me.
I need it for a kind of a diploma which is going to deal with such terms as "shame" and "guilt" in the shame-cultures.
Thanks a million beforehand!!!
Marina

Email: crushmarina@yahoo.de

I think that it is a shame that we as free people in this world would have to do so much trouble for watching a movie which is published as free content.

recent torrent link Submission 28-1--2005:
http://torrentreactor.net/view.php?id=5030571

Could yome kind soul reconnect with the complete film? Thank you! Tom

I can't understand why people are still posting to this thread. Godwin's Law was triggered quite some time ago. See here.

[translation] To Mr. van Gogh, to freedom. Thank you.

http://members.lycos.nl/sylviasanders/hpbimg/op-mr.-van-Gogh.jpg

This torrent is not working, is there any other way to download this movie?

BTW: End the war on drugs, if you support the war on drugs you support torture and terror.

http://groups.msn.com/LibertarianShadowDivision/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=90

There are no woman in islam sholat with veil but dressing transparant. Despite it critics on islam this film has lost it objective goal and becoming propaganda and religion "charactes" assasination.

Selamat pagi Saudara Moshack/Indonesia:

berkenaan pos anda :

"There are no woman in islam sholat with veil but dressing transparant. Despite it critics on islam this film has lost it objective goal and becoming propaganda and religion "charactes" assasination."

Saya tidak dan saya kurang mengerti makna tulisan anda.
Pilem pendek adalah percobaan untuk memperlihatkan bagaimana agama Islam merendahkan dan menindas kaum wanita di seluruh dunia.Ini adalah masaalah internasyonal yang besar sekali untuk agama Islam.

Apakah anda bisa mengulang pos sekali lagi dalam bahasa Indonesia dan saya akan menterjemahkannya ke dalam bahasa Inggris bagi anda.

Ribuan terima kasih

Kim Sook-Im
Saudari dari Korea Selatan

Trackback URL: /cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/1491

Bjørn Stærk blog: Submission, Part 1, November 9, 2004 06:43 PM

"Submission, Part 1" (download here) is a well-made short film with a simple, consise message. A woman in a black,...