Bjørn Stærk blog - Norway the world's richest country?

Sandy P | 2005-04-20 01:58 | Link

Elise doesn't have to be impressed w/Bawer, he's partially basing his article on TIMBRO's study.

http://www.econopundit.com/archive/2005_04_01_econopundit_archive.html#111383208605990032

Econopundit's got the 2000 graph.

**Here's the Timbro study discussed in the NYT yesterday. The basic picture:

graph won't print, based on EUROSTAT info, comments below:

Taxes reportedly have something to do with it.

Via Instapundit.

UPDATE: And on a related (some might even say "lighter") note there's this.

UPDATE II: Jon Henke is thinking about this as well:

While much of Europe is relatively wealthy, they have essentially "securitized" their financial progress by shifting risk to the government. That's a good plan for high risk/low reward activity, if you can get a sucker to take the bet. Europeans have found their sucker, and it is them.

The result is little social risk, and reduced economic gain. Grandma and Grandpa may like the comfortable bargain they've made, but their grandchildren suffer for it in ways they cannot even conceive.

Elise | 2005-04-20 06:49 | Link

Just for the record, I'm impressed with the Timbro study, too. It's been a long time since I took Comparative Econ and I don't feel comfortable enough to criticize it or to give it acclamation.

My critique is of Bawer's descriptions of Norway based on his 6 years here. He made Norway seem like a Soviet bloc that was completely unrecognizable to me. I expect more from Bawer.

Bjørn Stærk | 2005-04-20 13:03 | Link

I agree with Elise, the statistics in this article are interesting, but the anecdotes don't sound right. I'm not sure how much of this is just me, but in the three places I've worked at (the Oslo local bureaucracy, a bank, and a software company) I've never seen anyone bring a matpakke for lunch.

Then again it is also rare for anyone to go out for lunch, and when this happens it's usually at the company's expense. So I don't know if he's completely wrong. But it's not the whole picture.

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-20 19:18 | Link

I don´t know if lunch at work is standard in Norway, I know it is in Sweden, and not at all here in Denmark.

It doesn´t surprise me that Danes have the least buying power in spite having the highest income per capita or near in the world.

I guess rather than asking why we cut in welfare states now that we are richer than ever while we build those when we were poorer, we should ask ourselves why we get so little for so much tax.

Because high taxes are a big part of the problem, yet it is certainly not the only part!

For my own country you can take almost any living commodity, or necesity for living and it´s much more expensive here than anywhere else, often double the price as compared to the US.
You buy drugs, the price for some mysterious reason is often more than the double than Spain, USA, etc. You talk on the phone you pay if not the double then much more, you tap the electric grid, you buy petrol, a car, food, it´s gonna cost you, much more than about all other places in the world.
And the biggest part, livng room, the price for a house or apartment in some areas have been for some decade doubling it self, I believe in some areas even trippling itself each decade for the last 2-3 decades.

Anyways the welfare state here may have been originated when we were poorer, but it wasn´t funded by tax income back then either, it was to excessive funded by loans.

So we need to get taxes down, but we need to get some prices down on the market as well, though that is probably going to be the hardest, since there is competition already, heavy competition even, after all which company doesn´t want to get in on a market where they can get the double without most people even noticing it!

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-20 19:22 | Link

Trippling of house prices in some areas or there about has only been taking place since 1990 Approximately, in general it only has doubled or slightly more than the through the 1990-2000. Depends very much on where of course some places house prices dropped.
But the capitol having even higher wages than the rest of the country is very expensive to live in.

Sandy P | 2005-04-20 20:24 | Link

Doesn't matter, everyone, we're doomed starting to 2012 -- don't worry, be happy.

MORE: A PROPHECY ABOUT THIS POPE? It seems this gent has been “Benedict Blogging” since November of 2000. He just liked the name! But today he posts this sort of eerie prediction from last year, based on St. Malachy’s stuff, that the next pope would be, in fact, Benedict. Cue the Twilight Zone music and let’s go have a Guinness, says I!

The “prophecy” is here and it is…pre-tty compelling!

Ronald L. Conte, Jr., is a poet, an author of a number of books on Catholic theology, and the the proprietor of the website CatholicPlanet.com. Most importantly, given today’s events, he is the author of an article titled “The Future and the Popes”, published on November 14, 2004 (keep that date in mind), the full text of which is available here. In that article, Conte analyzes St. Malachy’s prophecy about the popes and concludes as follows:

The next Pope after John Paul II will take the name Pope Benedict XVI, in imitation of Saint Benedict and also of Pope Benedict XV.

That is simply remarkable. Conte goes on to explain the reasons behind the choice of the name Benedict, the efforts Benedict XVI will make for world peace, and the frustration Benedict will experience as his efforts go for naught as the world is engulfed in a war between the “Arab nations” and the West.

Both Conte and St. Malachy were completely unknown to me before today, and I was led to them by commenter “Sally” on this post at Amy Welborn’s wonderful blog Open Book. Given Conte’s spooky accuracy about the new pope’s name, I believe his work bears further investigation.

Sandy P | 2005-04-20 20:25 | Link

Elise, kind of like how Europeans get America wrong????

I keed, I keed.

Peter | 2005-04-20 20:40 | Link

I think Bruce got it right, and the reaction from Elise and others is more a result of "truth hurts" symptoms and denial.

Norway average disposable income after taxes is FAR less than in America. It is simply a matter of fact.

I was born in Norway, and emigrated to the US in my 20s. Every time I go back to visit family, I am shocked by the continuing detoriation of the Norwegain state, and complete denial that most Norwegians are in.

It is funny how extremely sensitive Norwegians are to articles about their country abroad. It tells volumes of a national sense of insecurity if nothing else.

Erin S. - Olympia, WA | 2005-04-20 23:55 | Link

"It is funny how extremely sensitive Norwegians are to articles about their country abroad. It tells volumes of a national sense of insecurity if nothing else."

I feel compelled to throw in my No-Value-Added 2-cents-worth into the jar regarding this topic: I must say that I agree with the previous blogger.

As an American married to a Norwegian, I am always astounded when meeting for the first time, or socializing with Norwegian nationals, at how important it is for a large majority of Norwegians that the world stands in awe of:

a.) Norway
b.) Norwegians
c.) Norway

Did I mention Norway and/or Norwegians?

The gist of a typical conversation goes something like this:

Norwegian women are far more independent than American women. We don't feel the need to be wedded in order to have a baby. We are so progressive. We have even had women prime ministers whereas the U.S. has yet to have a woman president. And speaking of women, did you know that in Norway women have a year maternity leave? Don't you wish that you had the same thing? Norway gives more aid/money to third world countries, per capita than the U.S. Everyone in Norway has access to medical care --why doesn't a powerful country like America have the same? We don't have homeless people or people begging for food. Norway takes care of her citizens. Unlike America where so many people live in poverty and without health care. And we think it is silly that so many of you Americans live in fear all of the time. But enough about Norway, Norwegians, Norway... let's talk about you. What do you think about Norway, Norwegians, Norway?

It goes on and on and... throw in that One Hit Wonder band, A Ha (and what a schmuck President Bush and all the Washington neocons are; the war in Iraq, Afghanistan; how the world won't survive 4 more years of Bush & Co... how f_cked up America is in general)... and you pretty much have a front row seat of what I see and deal with when visiting my husband's family and friends or when they visit us.

When faced with this type of "We are the greatest country on earth!" barrage, I just smile and pepper the conversation with a few "Ooh's!" "Ahh's!" "Wow! That's fantastic!" to stroke their very nationalistic egos and try to make the visit as pleasant as possible until it is time for us to catch our flight back home or take them to the airport. It is almost comical come to think of it.

Recently (this past March) my husband was in Oslo on business and he was absolutely disgusted by what he experienced. The last time he was there was when we were visiting his family during Christmas of 2002. He told me it was almost like a shock to his system. The cost of everything, the rudeness of people, the way people can't seem to grasp the whole concept of queuing up in line anywhere, the lack of simple common curtesies, the inadequate highways & traffic congestion, the lack of variety in stores... and that he just wanted to hurry up with business and get back home.

We will be visiting Norway for the first time as parents this June. Not only will our then 19 month old son, Leif, make the long trans-atlantic flight interesting so should the visit itself be interesting. Any suggestions or advice or comments to help my get through this upcoming visit?

Peter | 2005-04-21 02:17 | Link

Erin S,

Great post. I couldn't agree more, you have experienced the exact same sentiments I do everytime I am in Norway.

I can deal with the atrociously bad selection og goods in stores. I can also deal with high prices. I can tune out the socialist propaganda and inflated selfimportance that most Norwegians tend to attack me with.

But what strikes me as most unbearable about Norway is the rudeness. "Folkeskikk" seems to have died long ago in my old country of birth.

Any suggestions for your upcoming trip? Well, you could do like I do: Concentrate on family, stay healthy (you don't want to experience the state run health services, believe me!) and make the trip as short as possible. Before you know it, you will be safely home in the USA.

Sandy P | 2005-04-21 03:54 | Link

Sounds like your husband is an American by heart, Erin.

He only has blood as his tie to the old country.

Those ties can be broken.

You could bring a book on anti-Americanism to read by a french author.

You could also point out that if they have a computer and the net, they can talk w/the world and things might not be as they've been led to believe.

Start them out at Bjorn's blog.

--Norway gives more aid/money to third world countries, per capita than the U.S.-- I always love this line.

Suggest that once they start paying their fair share militarily and via prescription drug prices so our seniors don't have to eat cat food, then you'll be happy to compare apples to apples.

Give them something to think about.

If they site UN figures, you're going to believe a bunch of thugs, rapists and thieves?

Øyvind, Mechelen | 2005-04-21 13:34 | Link

Yes, Norwegians are rude. We do not even say "please" when asking for something, and we never use the word "sir" and the formal forms in our language died away decades ago.

Even worse; consider this - Norwegians are arrogant. Not only a tad arrogant, but terribly arrogant. Of course, some might say that the French have a streak of arrogance, too, and that Americans have a couple of truckloads, but hey - two wrongs does not make one right, does it?

But even if both those things are considered there is a problem with Bawers story. In this story it is he who comes off as the arrogant one ("so you drive round in wrecks, do you?") and it is he who repeats "cartoonish lies" (to quote his own article on European anti-Americanism).

And by the way - when someone thinks that Norwegian in general just repeat socialist propaganda, frankly, that tells me more about that someone and their own political viewpoints than about Norwegians, socialists or Norwegian socialists.

Sandy P | 2005-04-21 15:28 | Link

This is OT, but have you all heard the latest about UNSCAM?

Roger L. Simon is a place to go:

The level of prevarication surrounding the recent resignation of investigators Robert Barton and Miranda Duncan from the Independent Inquiry Committee into the United Nations Oil-for-Food Programme is so great that even a blogger in farwaway Los Angeles can see that committee members responding to the resignations are lying through their teeth.

Volcker's committee didn't follow up like it should have.

They're trying to snow us, guys.

Erin, you should tell your outlaws that you'd like to discuss their views, but you can't because you can't even start on the same page .

Then suggest they might want to start reading Instapundit, that should make their heads spin. Once they actually are up to speed, then you'd be happy to engage in thoughtful, educated, civilized discourse. And we will of course, agree to disagree, so, any new recipies that you can recommend?

Sandy P | 2005-04-21 15:29 | Link

In short, bring up things that you're aware of that they might not be, oh, your MSM hasn't covered that yet?

With a wide-eyed innocent look.

Practice, practice, practice!

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-21 15:39 | Link

"Yes, Norwegians are rude. We do not even say "please" when asking for something"
No, but we do say thanks :p

"Even worse; consider this - Norwegians are arrogant. Not only a tad arrogant, but terribly arrogant. Of course, some might say that the French have a streak of arrogance, too, and that Americans have a couple of truckloads, but hey - two wrongs does not make one right, does it?"
Whahaha! :D good stuff!

Honestly.. I dont know if the Americans have noticed, but they are also terribly sensitive to bad commercials for their own country. I think that is why they are so insistent on justifying the war in Iraq, which by far must the worst advertisment for US since Vietnam.

nils, oslo | 2005-04-21 16:35 | Link

” But even if both those things are considered there is a problem with Bawers story. In this story it is he who comes off as the arrogant one ("so you drive round in wrecks, do you?") and it is he who repeats "cartoonish lies" (to quote his own article on European anti-Americanism). “

What “cartoonish lies” are you referring? Mind going in to specifics?

When criticism gets the kind of reaction like this, there looks to be something smelly in the closet. By the way, I don’t see anything about his article in the press. I’ve searched the Atekst archive, there was no mentioning in the national newspapers. Kind of strange, isn’t it? Articles in the NYT about our country usually get broad coverage in the national press, but this one is silenced to death.

And actually I can understand Mr. Bawers frustration quite well. How do you think he must have perceived the ugly anti-american bias in Norwegian media the past few years? So primed we have become with it, the mere mentioning of USA gives the expectation of something negative to come. I guess he learned this way of reporting over here.

My opinion is Go Bruce, give us more, let’s talk about social democracy with open eyes in daylight. Because we are not a Soviet state, are we?

nils, oslo | 2005-04-21 16:43 | Link

Sorry, found an article in VG, my mistake.

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=103987

PK, Sun Valley | 2005-04-21 17:15 | Link

Norwegians are so sensitive and insecure, it is obvious to anyone.

There are probably 1000 articles critical of the United States being published every day in various media outlets around the world.
As an American, I couldn't care less. I am confident in what my country is and what it stands for.

Then, ONE critical article of Norway in the NY Times, and Norwegians go ballistic. Clearly they suffer from grave insecurity.

Jan Haugland, Bergen | 2005-04-21 19:03 | Link

Some thin skin has been exposed, I think.

It is true that Norwegian has no word for "please." We have a phrase for "pretty please", ie "vær så snill."

I have long argued that the Norwegian term corresponding to "excuse me" is really "flytt deg!" (move yourself!).

I suspect one reason for this rudeness is our long history of living in small, reasonably isolated communities. If you know everyone you meet in a normal day, there is little need for polite phrases beyond "hi", "bye" and "thanks". Only in communities where you meet strangers regularly is more advanced manners necessary. Presumably, since this has been the situation for most of us for many decades, we are learning.

Øyvind, Mechelen | 2005-04-21 19:41 | Link

Dear Sirs, Nilsr

I think Elise sums up the cartoonism pretty nice, thank you. It is for instance true when mr. Bawer tries portraying Norwegians as the people who never eat quiches or as people in a country with devilishly expensive gasoline (Hell is quite a big fire to throw gasoline on), when in fact - it is comparatively speaking the second cheapest in Europe.

Since we are so poor we always bring our matpakke to lunch, it could perhaps be interesting to see how large a part of their salary Norwegians use on food. Care looking into that, mr R?

Hell, even I eat quiches and I am far from a hip city dude. And I did before I came to what must be the halfway-promised land, so close to Luxembourg as it is. As the Norwegian I am I do not feel like saying much more about that, at least not in English. Think me rude? Well, I lost my "folkeskikk" years ago, probably around the time when some upnosed arrogant teacher first found the term worthy of use. Of course, I do not blame him for being arrogant, he was Norwegian too.

Regarding our rudeness, I also have to tell a story. On the train in London I once saw a rather fat person reading the Financial Times. Then a thin elderly man with an umbrella entered, tried to put his bag on the shelves above and was immediately accused by the crossword-solving Financial Times-fan of stepping on his stockbroker toes.

The thin elderly man eagerly denied this, but still excused himself, as any good Brit would do.

Obviously the fat guy with the sharp pencil was not pleased with mere polite excuses, and thus Mr. Fat shoved Mr. Thin into a woman, let us call her Mrs. Slighly Surprised, next to them, saying something that involved "you should", "mind" and "your politics".

It was at that point I should have told our financial friend:

"Hey. I come from a country where being polite and politics are two very distinct things, but still I find you rather rude".

As the socialist propagandist I am I probably will say that in my autobiography, but in reality, I sadly did not.

Rude salutes,

Øyvind

PK, Sun Valley | 2005-04-21 20:19 | Link

Food expenditure as % of total expenditure:

Norway 16 %
United States 9.7 %
Source > http://www.ers.usda.gov

In other words, Norwegian spends over 60% more on food than Americans do. Despite the "Matpakke" phenomenon. So Bruce Bawer clearly has a very good point here.

Regarding the extreme rudeness of Norwegians:

I don't buy the arguement that Norwegians are rude because they live in isolated communities. I live in a very small community in the US where everyone knows eveybody, but we are still friendly and courteous to our fellow man.

Anthropologist Anh Nga Longva has written an excellent dissertation on Norwegian rudeness that I highly recommend.

Jan Haugland, Bergen | 2005-04-21 22:22 | Link

PK,

It speaks volumes that Øyvind didn't realise Norwegians use far more of their income on food than Americans. He's never visited a supermarket in the US, I take it.

Yes, but your culture wasn't developed from scratch there. Most of the inhabitants, if I am not mistaken, are descendants of people who immigrated from Europe and other places over the last two centuries. I am talking about centuries of cultural evolution in small communities.

At any rate; it's just a hypothesis. It is not tested.

Anthropologist Anh Nga Longva has written an excellent dissertation on Norwegian rudeness that I highly recommend.

I'd love to. Is it on the net?

Sandy P | 2005-04-21 22:33 | Link

Oh, Allen, you are good for giggles!

Some people's "arrogance" could also be considered "confidence."

Sandy P | 2005-04-21 22:35 | Link

Well, it does make sense the Norweigans pay more for food, location, location, location.

And the frogs. How does the EU fisheries agreement affect Norway?

kjell | 2005-04-21 23:19 | Link

The "matpakke" and rudeness discussion is, well, a bit provincial. I don't like "matpakke". I don't like rudeness, either. I have experienced both, well outside of Norways borders.
What mr. Bawer really has pointed at is the Norwegian "better than thou" attitude, and he is unfortunately right.
For non-Norwegian readers,I shall introduce you to a new noun.
"Verdensmester", lit. "Champion of the world".
It is something we simply love being, whether it is skiing, womens soccer, or some obscure sport, or the image we like to project of ourselves in the world.
The reactions mr. Bawer get, and has formerly gotten, re his "macdonald hamburger" affair, is due to the fact that we all suspect, deep inside, that we are not such "verdensmesters" after all.
Personally, I think mr. Bawer does us all a favor by pricking a bit on the balloon of"verdensmesterism" we live in.

Erin S. - Olympia, WA | 2005-04-21 23:32 | Link

Peter | 2005-04-21 02:17 | Link

**********

I will keep that in mind as I personally have seen Norway’s state run health services. While it isn’t horribly substandard, it is not something I would want to have to deal with especially coming from what I have here in the good ol’ U.S. of A. My father-in-law fell ill on New Year’s Eve 2002/2003 and was admitted to hospital where he stayed for the remainder of our visit. We visited his hospital room (it was just a bit larger than my walk in closet in our bedroom at home) which he shared with another patient. That was the first day and most of the second day. For the next day and a half, we visited him in the freaking hallway! They rolled his gurney style bed out into the hallway!

My husband and I had our firstborn in 2003. The room I had for the 3 days I was there was huge, private, and included a sofa that converted into a bed for my husband and a private en-suite bathroom that was decorated in state of the art entertainment and a soothing color palette. The next time I was admitted to a hospital, I was in a room for a week that was a bit smaller than the maternity room, but just as nice and accommodating.

I really have to bite my tongue whenever my in-laws spew out glowing remarks at how much better Norway’s health care services are to the US’s.

Øyvind, Mechelen | 2005-04-21 13:34 | Link

“Yes, Norwegians are rude. We do not even say "please" when asking for something, and we never use the word "sir" and the formal forms in our language died away decades ago.”

**********

In the U.S. it is not considered overly “formal” to say “please” when asking for something, just a considerate thing to do when asking someone to inconvenience their self for you. However, there are not many who do say “please” to say a waiter/waitress or customer service personnel, or people in the customer service industry in general, when requesting something as it is a given that that is why they are there –to be of service to you. But it is in very bad manners by many Americans standard to not at least say “thank you” afterwards.

It is in my personal opinion that you almost seem rather proud that in Norway common, every day good manners are deemed draconian, subservient and superfluous. And just as an FYI: Unless you are in the military or addressing a judge or political figure (or, if you are a child growing up in the south where many children and teenagers are raised to often refer to an adult as “sir,” “ma’am,” or for example: “Miss Erin” or “Mr. Gaute”) people in the U.S. do not go around saying “Yes Sir!” “No Ma’am!” in some Orwellian-like fashion.

“Even worse; consider this - Norwegians are arrogant. not only a tad arrogant, but terribly arrogant. Of course, some might say that the French have a streak of arrogance, too, and that Americans have a couple of truckloads, but hey - two wrongs does not make one right, does it?”

**********

I really do not have much to say to this other than that I found the whole comment revealing. Here we have an admission that yes, Norwegians are not only a tad bit arrogant, but terribly arrogant (simulating a sniff and a brushing of lint –real or imaginary—off my blouse sleeve). And the French have a streak of arrogance (Whoa! Did you see that?!?! Something just streaked on by! Did you see it?!?!). But the Americans! Now, the Americans have a COUPLE OF TRUCKLOADS of arrogance! (SAVE YOURSELF! Run for your lives! Oh dear G-d!! Oh the humanity!!)

*Ahem.* (clear throat)

Goodness, I have something caught in my throat. I think it is called sarcasm. I’m sorry about that Øyvind, Mechelen . I just couldn’t resist. But for you to claim that Bawer, through his editorial opinion piece, as the one who comes off as arrogant and repeating cartoonish lies seems a bit like the pot calling the kettle black to me.

But that’s just me.

“And by the way - when someone thinks that Norwegian in general just repeat socialist propaganda, frankly, that tells me more about that someone and their own political viewpoints than about Norwegians, socialists or Norwegian socialists.”

*********

Obviously I have not met every single Norwegian in Norway… but the ones that I am in continuous contact with (my in-laws and their friends and family members) in Norway and those that we socialize with when they visit Washington State or when we visit Norway; often DO REPEAT, in general, socialistic propaganda. What does that tell you about me and my political viewpoints? I just cannot fathom what that can possibly reveal to you… But what I can tell you is that when I have visitors visiting me, my home, and my country, or when I am abroad, I find it to be in poor taste to:

1.) make it a point to proclaim all that is great about America
2.) point out all that is wrong and bad about their country
3.) “debate” (and I use that term loosely because a more accurate description would peg it as an indoctrination) with them until they see the glory of our political ideologies and the failures of theirs.

I would rather show them the sites, make sure they are comfortable and enjoying themselves, and just enjoy the culture differences and similarities. Not waste time on one-upmanship.

Leave religion and politics out of it.

Sandy P | 2005-04-21 15:28 | Link
“Erin, you should tell your outlaws that you'd like to discuss their views, but you can't because you can't even start on the same page.
Then suggest they might want to start reading Instapundit, that should make their heads spin. Once they actually are up to speed, then you'd be happy to engage in thoughtful, educated, civilized discourse. And we will of course, agree to disagree, so, any new recipies that you can recommend?”

**********
Ach! Believe me, sometimes I really just want to rip right into them but I will not do so because they are my husband’s parents. And because of that, I honor my husband by letting it go. I mean, don’t get me wrong… there have been some lively discussions around our dining room table. But I, or my husband, have always managed to nip it in the bud before it got bad. My deliciously yummy bit of Viking-man-morsel of a husband always has my back and he has me in stitches when he points out that many Norwegians are suffering from NorgeSocialistphobia: the irrational fear that some where, somehow, someone is doing much better than you. ;o)

My thoughts? Why bother? To each, their own. But if you don’t mind, I am going to borrow the “so, any new recipes that you can recommend?” line ;o)

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-21 15:39 | Link
"Yes, Norwegians are rude. We do not even say "please" when asking for something"
No, but we do say thanks :p

**********

Not always. Case in point: December 2002, hubby and I are running around Trondheim trying to buy fireworks for New Year’s Eve. Upon exiting a store with our purchases, a man was struggling trying to open and keep open the door in order to exit store with his child who was in a pram. Darling, wonderful husband of mine ran back to hold the door open so that man and child can safely exit and maneuver down most treacherous of steps. Man with child flashes a dirty look at husband and leaves without so much as a “tusen takk.”

But that’s neither here nor there.

However, what I would like to just throw out there: from my own observation is that many, many Norwegians are highly skilled at being “passive-aggressive.” They will cut in front of you while you are queued up and look the other way and never make eye contact with you. In the following incident which I fondly call: The Loo Incident.
Upon landing at the Bergen airport from Trondheim, I left my husband to go in search of a loo. I found one, however both stalls were in use. So I stood waiting. In the meantime, the door behind me opens and closes. I turned to look and a woman looks at me and then away really fast. As the stall door opens and a woman vacates, the woman behind me cuts in front of me and occupies the stall! What an f’ing biotch! I mean, geesh… if you had to go and just couldn’t wait, at least ask! Because I may not be in as dire as a need as you of relieving myself (in this case, I was!). I’m like: Oy! Hello!? I was waiting for that toilet!
Silence. (Aside, of course, the human bodily function performing) Not a peep from her and I’m just livid. But I wait (barely) so that I can really lay into her and she literally ran away from the scene of the crime! Without washing her hands, no less (Ewwww!)
I later saw her with a guy and they were whispering and glancing over to where I was and then averting their eyes. How pathetic. I just rolled my eyes and went about with my business.

“Honestly.. I dont know if the Americans have noticed, but they are also terribly sensitive to bad commercials for their own country. I think that is why they are so insistent on justifying the war in Iraq, which by far must the worst advertisment for US since Vietnam.”

**********
From a personal standpoint, I disagree with this last remark. Yes, I like to hear it when people across the two ponds tell me that they enjoyed visiting my country. Or that they love America and wish to move here, yada, yada, yada… But honestly, we’ve been poked at from below and from the sides (and at one time, even from above) for so many years now that there are calluses built up. I do not lose sleep over a snide comment, or flag burning protest march. Because either these people do not have a clue or they have a valid point. Because it is all about free speech, baby! And no one country is beyond reproach. And at the end of the day, I could care less!

Arrogant? Perhaps. But I learned along time ago, at least by the age of 25 (I’m 37 now) that there will be those who will like you, those who will not, and why I shouldn’t take it personally.

Sandy P | 2005-04-22 02:29 | Link

Erin, tell them about allrecipies.com.

If you have a computer, that should kill a good hour or 2.

Don't forget the weather and fashion.

And focus on the baby!

Ivar, Voss | 2005-04-22 03:02 | Link

First off, how much does GDP per capita really say about how rich a country is? It doesn't take into consideration the inequality inside the country, so it might leave a disorted image of how much the average person makes. The inequality of income is greater in USA than in Switzerland, Denmark, Ireland, Austria, Holland, Sweden and Belgium.

Also, the tax obviously gives you free (or almost free) services. Shouldn't this have been taken into consideration (somehow)?

Erin:
My family (from Norway) also had some experience with the health service in the USA. My sister broke a bone in her leg and got operated. It was done quickly. I don't remember much about the room
she was in, but I think it was OK and private (since you seem concerned with that). It was all okay, we got the bill, 8000$ if I remember correctly, and sent it to the insurance company (Gjensidige Nor). There was a lot of back and forth, the insurance company complaining about the hospital charging too much, and my mother was stuck in the middle having to do a lot of extra work. Anyhow, it eventually worked out. Now, about 15% of the american population doesn't have health care. How do you suppose they would be able to pay such a bill, especially if they were poor? Is there a conflict between quality and availability?

But I learned along time ago, at least by the age of 25 (I’m 37 now) that there will be those who will like you, those who will not, and why I shouldn’t take it personally.

There's a big difference between not liking you and your political opinions (and likewise Americans and American foreign policy). It's not too hard to have an conversation about politics (or religion) without getting too agitated.

Also.. It's kind of ironic (or the exact reverse situation). During our visit to the USA, my father didn't express his views about politics, for example the Iraq-war, to the family we stayed with. Simply, like you, if I'm understanding you correctly, believing that there was simply a fundamental disagreement between him and them in their views, and this would result in a too uncomfortable discussion.

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-22 04:25 | Link

Ivar, I will tell you this once.. You should not hring the poor into the conversation. Thats something our US friends does not like. Besides its only their own fault for being poor, so they can get what they are given, whether it is lousy care or not (that was sarcasm by the way).

Sandy P:
Always my pleasure :p
Now, so you're saying that Norwegians are arrogant because they love their country, while the Americans are confident.. I say both of us are nationalistic, and both are more confident than ever because we feel we are morally and in other areas superiour. Besides, it is quite a generalisation, I mean, it is rather odd to judge the a whole country from what one or two people have experienced, huh? Would you not say so about Ivar's case? For instance, I could say that because she has such a different mindset from most Norwegians, she has bad experiences. That does not mean Norwegians are arrogant, it just means that she percieve them as arrogant. Most other might not. That is something that can only be proven with international perceptions, and we know how USA is doing in international opinion surveys compared to Norway.

PK, Sun Valley | 2005-04-22 06:44 | Link

Erin S. : Great post. I have had the same experiences as you, and whenever I visit family in Norway, I have to deal with the same issues. You learn to live with it, I guess. I am just so grateful each time I land safely in the USA after each visit.

As to Ivar from Moss and his praise for the "equality of income distribution" in Norway:
Yeah, socialism is a really good thing...All those services are free?!..Wow...Norway is great...*sigh*

Jan: The article was printed in Norsk Antropologisk Tidsskrift, not sure if it found on the net.

Finally, I find it amusing how many Norwegians (and evidently some Australians) find it so important to be liked by others. Reminds me of High School.
Again, this fully explains the reaction to Bruce Bawers comments, and why you would never see the same reaction in the States if some Norwegian article critized the US.

nils, oslo | 2005-04-22 10:29 | Link

Øyvind:
"I think Elise sums up the cartoonism pretty nice, thank you."

Yess, I’ve read that. Think one of the comments summed it up nicely: “it’s all lies, and anyway it’s the way we like to have it.” Someone is telling us that the system we have believed to be the best in the world just might not be so good after all. This touches our identity as citizens, and it hurts the believers. Remember, we don’t believe in God in this country, we believe in social democracy. Also referred to as ‘centrism’ by clever Øyvind. (somewhere on this blog)

“Since we are so poor we always bring our matpakke to lunch, it could perhaps be interesting to see how large a part of their salary Norwegians use on food. Care looking into that, mr R?”

Well, PK from the Sunny Valley answered that one for me, was it 60% more we had to spend on food? And I bet you they eat better too!

Erin: you seem like a reflected and intelligent person and a loyal and good wife. I’m sorry you have made such bad experiences in our country, and let me say not all of us is all that bad. Me too experienced a small cultural shock moving to Oslo from the north of Norway, the coast of Helgeland, being used to a more open culture. The shyness of the people, the passive aggressiveness.

My advice to you for your upcoming visit is to view us as the exotic, peripheral people we are. Common courtesy and politeness is one of the victims of the special branch of social democracy we’ve grown here. Øyvind is right stating it has disappeared the past decades. As social democracy developed further and as we got richer from oil. It makes our culture poorer. It could also be useful to remember that we are a young nation and has had a stunning development the past 50 years. It might take us some more decades to grow up and swallow the change.

Nils

Mark Amerman | 2005-04-22 12:01 | Link

Ivar wrote:

"My family (from Norway) also had some experience with the
health service in the USA. My sister broke a bone in her leg
and got operated. It was done quickly. I don't remember much
about the room she was in, but I think it was OK and private
(since you seem concerned with that). It was all okay, we got
the bill, 8000$ if I remember correctly, and sent it to the
insurance company (Gjensidige Nor). There was a lot of back
and forth, the insurance company complaining about the hospital
charging too much, and my mother was stuck in the middle having
to do a lot of extra work. Anyhow, it eventually worked out.

"Now, about 15% of the american population doesn't have health
care."

The first point is completely valid; be very wary about
getting hurt in the U.S., you may not believe the bill.

The second idea, though, the idea that some 15% of the population
lacks health care isn't really true.

There's something called Medicaid.

See http://www.cms.hhs.gov/medicaid/default.asp?

The U.S. has a two-tier (or more) medical system. An insurance
and job dependent system that covers most of the population and
a second for those with low-income and without insurance. The
second is inferior to the first but nonetheless very real.
Medicaid is all by itself no small part of the U.S. budget
deficit.

If I recall correctly about two-thirds of Medicaid expenditures
are for medical treatment of illegal aliens and hospitals
and emergency rooms in the southwest are breaking down and
going bankrupt under the load (they are required by law to
treat the indigent but the government doesn't fully reimburse).

Mark Amerman | 2005-04-22 12:37 | Link

Ivar wrote:

"First off, how much does GDP per capita really say about
how rich a country is? It doesn't take into consideration the
inequality inside the country, so it might leave a disorted
image of how much the average person makes. The inequality of
income is greater in USA than in Switzerland, Denmark, Ireland,
Austria, Holland, Sweden and Belgium."

Inequality of income has its good side and its bad side.
There's something very positive about starting off young
and poor and gradually becoming well-to-do, which is a
common american experience. Psychologically it must feel
very different to live in a society where most people
don't go through these transitions. It's also in my opinion
a good thing to have different levels of income and have
something to aspire to -- because this inspires people
to try harder. On the other hand significant parts of
the american inequality, especially at the upper end, are
rooted not in greater productivity, but in corruption, political
connections, monopoly, etc.

I believe what Ivar is writing is a common sentiment in
europe but two significant factors come to my mind that
should be raised in conjunction with this that aren't.

The first is the issue of the delta or change. Yes, the U.S.
has a greater inequality but it's also growing more rapidly.
It's conceivable that this more rapid growth has nothing
to do with the inequality, but it's more probable that
the inequality is part of what is driving the growth.

Here's an example (I'd like a more authoratative source
but this is probably correct):

from http://www.manews.org/06study.html

"Black people, who have the lowest income in the United States,
now have a higher standard of living than an ordinary Swedish
household," the study said. If Sweden were a U.S. state,
it would be the poorest as measured by household income, said Gidehag.

[and]

"Poor Swedes also experienced less income growth than
African-Americans. Between 1980 and 1999, the gross income
of Sweden's poorest households increased by only 6 percent
while the poorest households in the U.S. enjoyed an increase
in income that was three times higher."

Now I'm not really sure it's fair to compare black americans
to "poor swedes," whatever that means, since black americans
are hardly a homogenous group. Two-thirds of black americans
are middle-class making rapid economic gains. Another group,
smaller than one-third, seems stuck going nowhere.

But the basic point remains. It seems like the choice is
between a relatively equality and discovering new heights
in human prosperity. I know which way I lean.

The second factor I want to bring up is whether we are truly
comparing comparables. Say we have two individuals, one
american, one european, who both have the same amount of
money percentage-wise to spend in their respective countries.
But in the american case it's earned income and the european
it's some kind of welfare payment.

Are those two situations really comparable? Are they
equally good?

Jan Haugland, Bergen | 2005-04-22 16:23 | Link

TV2 Nettavisen has an article further debunking the idea that Norwegians are so rich. Based on net purchase parity, we are only #8 in Europe, and obviously far behind the US.

1 Denmark
2 Belgium
3 Germany
4 Holland
5 Switzerland
6 Luxembourg
7 UK
8 NORWAY
9 Finland
10 Austria
11 Sweden

As long as we beat Sweden, I'm happy.

Here is the full SSB report (PDF)

PK, Sun Valley | 2005-04-22 18:18 | Link

Just wanted to end this on a positive note:

There are still hope left for Norwegians.

Individuals like Jan Haugeland, Bjørn Stærk, and Fredrik Normann at least proves that are people who have not been indoctrinated by socialism.

Unfortunately, most people I encounter in my yearly visits to Norway are almost exclusively socialist, anti-Bush, and embarrassingly misinformed about USA and the virtue of capitalism.

I wonder: Is it legal for US citizens to contribute money to Fremskrittspartiet? If so, sign me up.

Erin S. - Olympia, WA | 2005-04-22 18:50 | Link

nils, oslo:

Please do not apologize as not all of my experiences with Norway/Norwegians have been bad. In the beginning, at the start of mine and my husband's relationship and all my initial meetings of Norwegians and Norway, I was absolutely BESOTTED with Norway. It was (and still is) beautiful. Beautiful landscape, architecture, culture, people... It was so different from what I was familiar with. Maybe it was the newness of the whole experience when everything was lovely and new. I do not know.

And maybe in the beginning my husband's family members, their friends and my husband's friends (I so *dig* his more wild and crazier friends!) kept conversations at the pleasantries level (i.e.: "are you enjoying your visit?" "Have you been to see such and such ?" "we once visited the States... we went to ."

You get the picture.

But as with anything, once the newness wears away and things begin settling and people's facade begin slipping away you come to see that the grass is no greener over there than it is at home.

My ramblings stem from a sudden need (upon reading some of the postings) to respond by sharing my own personal experiences pertaining to the topic. Not everything is fabulous in Norway. Life in Norway is not so far superior to life in neighboring and transatlantic countries. Norway is just like any other western country with its faults and assets. Why must so many Norwegians think otherwise? And that's the impression I got from Bawer's editorial piece: Norway is a lovely place but it has its faults too. Next thing you know, Norwegians are going ballistic!

I feel that you nailed it on the head when you wrote: "This touches our identity as citizens, and it hurts the believers."

But even I found a couple of errors in Bawer's story (example: the bit about people in Norway driving around in old beat up cars come to mind. My experience was the exact opposite. I saw loads of very well taken care of cars. My husband explained that this is because cars cost so much in Norway. People take better care of their vehicles because they are such a huge investment).

I did not mean to come off as a member of the "I hate Norway" club because I do not. I enjoy the differences between our two countries. Like my husband always says: He wishes he could take the good qualities of Norway and the good qualities of America and combined the two and make a kick-ass place to live. My gripe is against the inability by some to not be able to get past their nationalistic ego and extend the same curtesy that I give them.

Truly, I am looking forward to our June visit. :o)

Mark Amerman:

You beat me to the punch regarding the Medicaid health insurance. What is with this need by some to proclaim that America's poorest are living their lives by the seat of their pants because they have no health insurance?!? It is an common misconception that is getting as old as the day is long. Furthermore, I would venture to say that Medicaid coverage is equal to the Norwegian health system coverage.

Øyvind, Mechelen | 2005-04-22 19:27 | Link

Oh, I see, I have touched someones toenails by mentioning the word "truckloads", together with the French "streak". You have heard of "sarcasm", Erin. Have you heard of irony? It is an interesting phenomenon.

When I say Norwegians are arrogant, though, I am not being sarcastic, nor ironic, I am being truthful. We are. Kjell is perfectly right about that whole world champion thing.

And Jan and PK, when I asked to compare the spendage of food of Norway with other countries, I was not necessarily talking about the United States. Unlike some people, I am not always talking about the United States. I could have written pages on health care, illiteracy and all kinds of crap, but what I find interesting here is not how bloody nice Jan Haugland and all the Americans think America is, but how crappy they obviously think that Norway is.

However, your numbers and my numbers are not the same numbers. My numbers for Norway is somewhere around 11,5% for a standard household (Source: Statistics Norway - SSB / The Economist). The lates report I find from the US Labour department (2004, 2002 numbers) tell me that Americans use an average of 13,6%. The report is available here:

http://www.bls.gov/cex/csxann02.pdf

EUStats tells me that Greeks spend 38%. But then alcohol is included.

For the American supermarkets. No, I have not seen one. I have seen Belgian cheesestores and German sausage salesmen, though, and Norway does not come off that good in comparison. Of course, that does not mean we eat no quiches, neither does it mean that petrol is really that devilishly expensive, nor does it mean that the Norwegian "establishment", whatever who and what that is, sells of the States as a country divided between robber barons, wage slaves and homeless people. That is a caricature, and I do not like caricatures, whether they are anti-American, anti-Israeli, anti-French or anti-Norwegian.

Øyvind

Øyvind, Mechelen | 2005-04-22 19:40 | Link

By the way, my point with the whole food expenditure example was not - although you might think so - to prove that the United States is Hell on Earth and that Norway is the Garden of Eden.

It was to point out that there really is not that much of a difference. And that calculations like these should definitely be taken into consideration before one go crazy about Gross National Products. It might give a more interesting picture. It might give a truer picture. It might even reveal what areas Norway are truly expensive on. It is not food.

Vehicles does come to mind. Not that I worry too much about that, but that would have been a good example, although the "wrecks"-thing is bullshit. Alcohol comes to mind too. But I am in Belgium anyway. Proost.

Øyvind

Øyvind, Leuven | 2005-04-22 19:48 | Link

Here we go again. PK wrote: "Unfortunately, most people I encounter in my yearly visits to Norway are almost exclusively socialist, anti-Bush, and embarrassingly misinformed about USA and the virtue of capitalism".

- Oh, really. And if Norwegians are almost exclusively socialist, and the only hope that is, are Bjørn Stærk, Fredrik Normann and Jan Haugland, then I might have to ask you a few questions:

1. Is the government of Norway a socialist one?

2. Did a majority of voters vote for socialist parties at the last election in Norway?

I mean, being a socialist I would not mind most Norwegians being socialists and I cross my fingers for the next election, but please! I mean it. Please! Please?

Øyvind

Øyvind, Mechelen | 2005-04-22 20:00 | Link

As for the whole Sir and Ma'am-thing. I might be prejudiced. I do not know that many Americans. I do know a Texan, though, and it is quite some time since they were independent. And he sure uses both Sir and Ma'am. He is quite an okay fellow too.

The Americans that visited me when I worked in the tourist information also had a tendency to say Sir. Nice of them. I remember one guy in a white navy uniform that handed out one dollar bills to tourist office people he liked. Now, there is quite a caricature.

Øyvind

Erin S. - Olympia, WA | 2005-04-22 20:38 | Link

"Oh, I see, I have touched someones toenails by mentioning the word "truckloads", together with the French "streak". You have heard of "sarcasm", Erin. Have you heard of irony? It is an interesting phenomenon."

Øyvind: Either my latte was lacking that extra bit of zing this morning or there is something lost in translation here as I do not understand your comment.

Sure, I have heard of irony.. but in what context are you using it?

DEFINITION OF IRONY FROM WIKIPEDIA:

Irony is a form of speech in which the real meaning is concealed or contradicted by the words used. Irony involves the perception that things are not what they are said to be or what they seem. Dramatic irony lies in the audience's deeper perceptions of a coming fate, which contrast with the character's perceptions.

I'm just curious, so do tell me (please), where did I lose the gist of your comment where you commented on the levels of arrogance amongst Norwegian, French, and Americans? All I commented upon was how revealing it was for me that you should chose certain adjectives to describe the levels of arrogance.

The irony was that in doing that (you claiming that Bawer had no room to talk as Americans were at least a couple of truckloads deep in arrogance then France's streak and Norway's terribly [arrogance]) you, YOU, came across a bit more than terribly arrogant. Hence the cliche: the pot calling the kettle black.

Dang! I didn't mean to pull on that thread! Just having a little bit of fun! :o) Not funny? Sorry :o\

PS: I just love, love, LOVE it when a man touches my toes. I keep my toenails nicely painted with a different color nearly every week when I go in for my pedicure and deocrate at least 2 of my toes with lovely delightful little toe rings. *wink* *wink*

Ivar, Voss | 2005-04-22 21:13 | Link

Mark:
Thanks for the information on Medicaid. (I'm not too familiar with the American health care system.) Anyhow, on the page I linked to, it shows percentages of people on private health care (69%), medicaid (11%) and uninsured (15%). How does the system work for the uninsured (who don't belong in the medicaid group)?

There's something very positive about starting off young and poor and gradually becoming well-to-do, which is a common american experience. Psychologically it must feel very different to live in a society where most people don't go through these transitions.

Good point. There's also another side to it. Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a book about (not) getting by in low-wage jobs in America. The transition from poor to rich may not always take place. I suppose the question is if enough transitions are happening or not.

The second factor I want to bring up is whether we are truly comparing comparables. Say we have two individuals, one american, one european, who both have the same amount of money percentage-wise to spend in their respective countries. But in the american case it's earned income and the european it's some kind of welfare payment.

Yes, it's pretty hard to compare. And, how important is it really to compare this? USA and say Sweden are both very good countries to live in for most of the people. For many people it seems to be about emotions and "who is the best"*, which again is basically is about what systems (and small differences) works better. Some seem to loose focus, and I fear that this paragraph perhaps did. * I'm included here to a certain extent, no denying.

For those Norwegians interested, here are some interesting thoughts about Norwegians' self image. (Based/Inspired from left-wing Morgenbladet, now believe that.)

As to Ivar from Moss and his praise for the "equality of income distribution" in Norway: Yeah, socialism is a really good thing...All those services are free?!..Wow...Norway is great...*sigh*

Let's see... I didn't mention Norway in my whole post (except that my family comes from Norway). (The countries I mentioned were the ones ranking after USA in the Timbro report.)
I also didn't give "equality of income distribution" any praise, but you obviously perceived me as doing so. I just pointed it out that there is a greater inequality within USA than in the other countries listed.

There are different sides to inequality of income, like Mark very well pointed out. I haven't got a very concise opinion about it yet. Mark mentioned corruption, monopoly and political connections as illegitimate means of making money, and I hope everybody can agree on this. This is a problem both in Norway (most corrupt country in Scandinavia) and USA. It also needs more attention, I think.

Øyvind, Mechelen | 2005-04-22 21:19 | Link

Sure. Erin. When I said that the French have a streak of arrogance, I did conceal the real meaning of my statement. I think this literary method is sometimes also referred to as understatement.

Obviously, though - since you did not realize that I tried to come off as arrogant all along - I failed in my little literary experiment, possibly as a result of English being my second language. I am sorry (see, I can even be polite!).

Øyvind

P.S: How many toenail colours are there to choose amongst on the American market? Plenty, I would imagine?

Ivar, Voss | 2005-04-22 21:29 | Link

Erin wrote

Furthermore, I would venture to say that Medicaid coverage is equal to the Norwegian health system coverage.

Based on the information here, it seems that the people without insurance are covered by the Medicaid.

I lived in Mammoth Lakes, California three months this winter. Some American people, who my friends knew, were without insurance, and when they got hurt they postponed the hospital check up as long as possible due to the costs.* How does this match with the Norwegian health system, and with Medicaid? I can't think of any situation where people I know (in Norway) have waited with a hospital check up because of the costs.

*I'm not saying this is the same all over the country or with all types of injuries.

Erin S. - Olympia, WA | 2005-04-22 21:57 | Link

Dearest Øyvind,

I stand corrected! Yes, you are polite and NOT an oafish socialistic propagandist. Well, you could still be that (socialistic propagandist). But you are NOT OAFISH! (Don't ever let anyone else tell you otherwise, OK?)

And I TOTALLY missed the whole "trying to come off as arrogant on purpose" moment. My bad... Please accept my humble apology?

You are quite correct in your assumption that there is a plethora of nail polish colors to select from. Trust me, it would make your head spin and your eyes cross! I like to color them according to the seasons. Pastels in the springtime; corals, varying shades of pink, mauves and reds in the summertime; etc, etc, etc...

Alas, the dilemmas of being a self-centered arrogant American woman.

Is there any hope for me at all?

Erin S. - Olympia, WA | 2005-04-22 22:40 | Link

Ivar, Voss:

I should clarify my comment regarding Medicaid vs. Norwegian Health Care system. When my father in-law went to the hospital, there was a period of nearly 2 days where they housed him in the hallway. And he was one of several being housed in the hallway.

I remember whispering to my husband saying if this is the grandeur of the Norwegian health care system you can have it! I was gobsmacked that after hearing all the glowing remarks and then that. Needless to say I was not impressed. But that is not to say that your system is horrible. What I am saying is that I find the US health care system better than what I witnessed. What I witnessed was beneath the Health Care that I know of and probably more along the lines of Medicaid. But even Medicaid wouldn't have had patients recouperating in a hallway. At least not that I have heard.

Erin

PK, Sun Valley | 2005-04-22 22:53 | Link

Questions posed by Øystein:

1. Is the government of Norway a socialist one?

2. Did a majority of voters vote for socialist parties at the last election in Norway?

The answer is a resounding YES to both question. You assume that if a party call itself "borgelig", it is thus not socialistic.

I beg to differ. Reading the platforms of Høyre, Venstre, KrF and even FrP (to a certain extent) is an exercise in socialistic dogma. Karl Marx would have been proud.

The amount of statism (i.e. government control of goods and services) in Norway is truly horrific. And 4 years with a so-called "borgelig" government has not made an ounce of difference imho.

Carl I. Hagen once said: "Every political party in Norway is just a different shade of red".

Unfortunately, this is more true today than ever before.

Sandy P | 2005-04-22 23:16 | Link

ALL Americans have health care, not all have health insurance, there's a difference.

More than you'll ever want to know about American HC:

Who are the uninsured?

As the Democratic candidates call for various versions of national health insurance, we will hear a familiar fact many times, namely how many Americans lack medical insurance. According to one estimate, it is over fifteen percent of the population, which amounts to about 43.6 million people.

But who are these people? In reality many of them are immigrants. Here are two simple facts:
Immigrants who arrived between 1994 and 1998 and their children accounted for an astonishing 59 percent or 2.7 million of the growth in the size of the uninsured population since 1993.

The total uninsured population is one-third larger (32.7 million versus 44.3 million) when the 11.6 million persons in immigrant households without insurance are counted.

Hispanics have by far the lowest rates of being insured, here are some visuals. 41 percent of adult Hispanics are uninsured, of course many of these are recent immigrants, Hispanics as a whole account for over 12 percent of national population.

I am all for a liberal immigration policy, but I do not feel we are obliged to offer health insurance to all comers. In fact I suspect that national health insurance would, in the long run, lead to fiscal pressures to limit immigration, thus damaging the health of potential immigrants.

Nor do immigrants rush to buy their own health insurance, in many cases I suspect they would rather send the money back home, where health care crises are likely more severe:

Lack of insurance remains a severe problem even after immigrants have been in the country for many years. In 1998, 37 percent of immigrants who entered in the 1980s still had not acquired health insurance, and 27.2 percent of 1970s immigrants were uninsured. (Check out how much Mexicans send back to Mexico, it's the 2nd or 3rd largest, IIRC, form of legal income.)

Many other Americans lack health insurance because they are out of work. True, a good health care system should be robust to macroeconomic disturbances, but with employment and productivity rising, these people do not represent much of a current case for reform.
It also turns out that many of the uninsured are uninsured for only part of the year. According to the CBO, those uninsured for the entire year amount to somewhere between 21 and 31 million, knocking a full 12 million off the original total.

Some of the uninsured are more accurately a counting error:

According to the National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA), [a] verification question lowered the estimate of the number of uninsured living in households with annual incomes of $75,000 or more by 16 percent. The verification question lowered by 4 percent the number of uninsured living in households with incomes under $25,000.

Many of the uninsured are in fact college students, who either rely on their parents, or are covered under their parents' policies, read here. One estimate suggests that one out of seven college students lacks insurance, but it is hard to believe that most of these people have no other resources supporting them.
Finally, the uninsured often have good access to medical care. Consider this:

15 million of the uninsured have incomes of $50,000 or more. The fastest-growing population of uninsured has incomes exceeding $75,000. About 14 million are eligible for Medicaid or the State Children’’s Health Insurance Plan but are not enrolled.

The "entire year uninsured" receive about half as much care, in dollar-valued terms, as the fully insured. As a last resort, you can always show up at an emergency room and simply demand care. In the year 2001, uninsured Americans received at least $35 billion in health care treatments.

The bottom line: When you put all the pieces together, the crisis of the uninsured is not nearly as bad as it sounds.

Posted by Tyler Cowen on December 4, 2003 at 07:55

---

In short, some don't have it by choice and age.

(Marginal Revolution, an economic blog)

Sandy P | 2005-04-22 23:17 | Link

OT: Pay attention to Canada - Martin might be going down. He's now tied in w/the UN and Saddam.

Sandy P | 2005-04-22 23:26 | Link

No, Allan, the frogs are arrogant. We're confident. Norweigans are Norweiganish.

--and we know how USA is doing in international opinion surveys compared to Norway.--

America's "Irresponsible" President
Is the ““Chief Culprit of this War””

You must not take constructive criticism as an attack on America itself, I am often told. We have nothing against the American people, you see, it’’s only their leaders and the latters’’ policies we disapprove of. Oh, I understand. I understand totally. Thanks for clearing that up.
Thus, recently, one of Europe’’s foreign ministers denounced America’’s president as the ““chief culprit of this war”” and went on to bemoan the ““American people”” for having been betrayed by such an irresponsible leader.

““I don’’t see much future for the Americans”” added the head of state of the aforementioned minister.

It’’s a decayed country. And they have their racial problem, and the problem of social inequalities …… My feelings against Americanism are feelings of hatred and deep repugnance. …… How can one expect a State like that to hold together —— a country where everything is built on the dollar.

Evoking America’’s ““historically unique and shameless ill treatment of truth and of right”” in words which could have originated as much in the mouths of anti-globalization militants and of other pacifists marching against Washington as in those of the ambassadors in the hallowed halls of the United Nations, he added that the ““so-called”” president was ““guilty of a series of the worst crimes against international law””and that first, he incites war, then falsifies the causes, then odiously wraps himself in a cloak of Christian hypocrisy, and slowly but surely leads mankind to war, not without calling God to witness the honesty of his attack ……

A threatening opposition was gathering over the head of this man. He guessed that the only salvation or him lay in diverting public attention from home to foreign policy …… Thus began the increasing efforts of the American President to create conflict …… For years this man harboured one desire —— that a conflict should break out somewhere in the world.
[The fact is that one country] has at last become tired of being mocked by him in such an unworthy way fills us all …… I think, all …… decent people in the world, with deep satisfaction.
---

DO you hold some of these views?

Sandy P | 2005-04-22 23:47 | Link

--Norway is just like any other western country with its faults and assets. Why must so many Norwegians think otherwise?--

Your husband chose to stay in the US, Erin, it's home, what's left in Norway is mom and dad. That's an affront, your family has encapsulated the past 400 years. Maybe he chose because of you - which would make them have a chip against you, or he chose to stay because he likes it here. Would he go back all things being equal? Of course, Oregon is still more lefty than the rest of the country, but I will say this, some of your recent votes have surprised me. There's a little more groundedness, I guess would be a word, maybe not precise, there than I thought.

I don't know if USS Clueless is still up, but in SDB's archives is the American by birth v. American by heart.

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-23 00:27 | Link

Sandy Sandy bad woman :)

I was chocked over these words you quoted, and took out some of the quotes and googled them, looking for the foreign minister to put on the hitlist *JOKING*

It´s Ribbentrop I found. They sure as hell did not save anything in terms of the propagit.

Anyways Just look at the French attitude towards the US and you have something like this, this very day.

The rushing to meet China when it appears they can´t get the stop of weaponsembargo through, to express they consider Taiwan a part of China and have no objection against China taking it with force.

Maybe not so blatantly as Ribbentrop, more covert, more opportunistic, but still to the same effect.

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-23 00:31 | Link

Anyway just wonder.

What do you get from medicare, it can´t be so inclusive as the insurance, some parts must be missing found in the insurance ?

Erin S. - Olympia, WA | 2005-04-23 00:41 | Link

"Your husband chose to stay in the US, Erin, it's home, what's left in Norway is mom and dad. That's an affront, your family has encapsulated the past 400 years. Maybe he chose because of you - which would make them have a chip against you, or he chose to stay because he likes it here. Would he go back all things being equal? "

Yes, I'm sure there's a lot of resentment there. And the affront is made all the more worse that darling husband tends to disagree with his parents on Norwegian politics and U.S. politics to the point that his father becomes red in the face. And somehow, all this bleeds over on to me: I'm turning their son into an American.

Husband drives a Volvo SUV (blast those blasting Americans and their environment destroying need for SUVs!). Husband bought himself a motorcycle and enjoys being a weekend warrior biker (and let me tell you, he looks absolutely divine in his blue jeans, leather chaps, and leather coat! Oh be still my pounding heart!). His parents were extremely dismayed when they found out about the motorcycle. Husband doesn't have such a heavy accent anymore and his english is flawless. Husband loves making the amount of money he makes here and being able to keep so much of it. Husband is so pleased with amount of opportunities there are to succeed in this country. Husband loves the fact that people here could care less if you are a 60 something or older woman flinting around in a convertible sports car. He just loves the freedom to pursue whatever gets your goat.

But he still loves Norway. I tell him and everyone: you can take the boy out of Norway but you can't take Norway out of the boy.

You would think that this would make them feel secure that their only son will not change his citizenship... he's quite happy being a permanent resident and so am I. I don't want him to be an American citizen, and it makes me a little bit sad that he's losing his heavy Norwegian accent.

Anyhoo... I'm rambling now.

Sandy P | 2005-04-23 01:00 | Link

Compliments of Erik Svane.

http://www.eriksvane.com/

Awww, Thomas, you spoiled my fun.

---

In short, Allan,-- and we know how USA is doing in international opinion surveys compared to Norway.--

SOS - outside of WWI and WWII, when were we "liked?," especially in Europe?

Are you suggesting that if we peruse 100-150 newspapers, they're going to look upon the US favorably????

Here's another tidbit via Instapundit:

Meanwhile, with the Civil War in mind, reader Gregory Birrer points out that Europe never changes:

I have been reading a little book I picked up while in Gettysburg recently, entitled,
"Memoranda During The War" by Walt Whitman. It is a compilation of his notes from about 3 years worth of visits to War hospitals in and around Washington D.C. from 1862 - 1865. Toward the end he inserts some interesting political commentary (mixed in with a variety of topics) that sounds as if it could have been written today. Here's the piece:

Attitude of Foreign Governments toward the U.S. during the War of 1861-'65 -

Looking over my scraps, I find I wrote the following during 1864, or the latter part of '63: The happening to our America, abroad as well as at home, these years, is indeed most strange. The Democratic Republic has paid her to-day the terrible and resplendent compliment of the united wish of all the nations of the world that her Union should be broken, her future cut off, and that she should be compell'd to descend to the level of kingdoms and empires ordinarily great!There is certainly not one government in Europe but is now watching the war in this country, with the ardent prayer that the united States may be effectually split, crippled, and dismember'd by it. There is not one but would help toward that dismemberment, if it dared. I say such is the ardent wish to-day of England and of France, as governments, and of all the nations of Europe, as governments. I think indeed it is to-day the real, heart-felt wish of all the nations of the world, with the single exception of Mexico--Mexico, the only one to whom we have ever really done wrong, and now the only one who prays for us and for our triumph, with genuine prayer.

Is it not indeed strange? America, made up of all, cheerfully from the beginning opening her arms to all, the result and justifier of all, of Britain, Germany, France, and Spain - all here - the accepter, the friend, hope, last resource and general house of all - she who has harm'd none, but been bounteous to so many, to millions, the mother of strangers and exiles, all nations - should now I say be paid this dread compliment of general governmental fear and hatred?.......Are weindignant? alarm'd? Do we feel wrong'd? jeopardized? No; help'd, braced, concentrated, rather.

We are all too prone to wander from ourselves, to affect Europe, and watch her frowns and smiles. We need this hot lesson of general hatred, and henceforth must never forget it. Never again will we trust the moral sense nor abstract friendliness of a single government of the world.

November 18, 2003
Instapundit posting

---

150 years of our good friends, and some historic allies "critiquing" us for our "own good" is getting kind of old - just like parts of the European museum. Musty, dusty, dirty.

"Of course we're not against the American people, it's just your president and his policies." How far back do you want me to go? I seem to recall Dickens had some scathing words for US.

I'd say pick a pres, but I'm not really in the mood for research.

This is not a high school dance, and I'm long past prom queen or king material. "The world" will not be happy until we're as miserable as the rest of it. We went our own way. The world has been waiting for 228++ years for validation that their mutated monarchy way is the right way. It's not.

We've had this discussion before and you still don't get it.

I seem to recall writing here, tho maybe I'm wrong, that Niall Ferguson in a WSJ piece gave 4 options, US, the Chicoms, Islamofascism, or armed camps. For some reason, the world prefers at this point in time communism or fascism. SOS, haven't learned anything from the multimillions of 20th century deaths, but that's only because the "right" people weren't in place at that time, but, boy, the "right" people are in place now or soon, and we'll all live in EUtopia if only the US would agree to toss over that archaic 18th century document and 2000 year-old religion/morals/standards which have no place in the modern world.

My Viet Nam or Korean-era response by a surrounded colonel: NUTS!

The world thinks Christianity is a problem, just wait. But that's a discussion for the Islam thread.

But cheer up, Allan, George Soros will make everything right, we'll come to heel eventually, but I'll be dead, and I'm glad. After all, 100% literacy and free health care are more important than private property rights and liberty.

What the Crown giveth, the Crown taketh away, don't think they won't. Now certain professors think there's too much choice in America and they want to push for less choice, of course, who decides what I can choose from?

As I told you before, it always comes back to that, doesn't it?

Again, we are freedom for, most of the world is freedom from. Unfortunately for the world, freedom for pays the bills for freedom from. That's econ 101.

Sandy P | 2005-04-23 01:04 | Link

Ahhh, wants his cake and eat it, too.

At some point in time, he'll have to choose. Daddy, why don't you want to be an American?

I have a friend who's been here over 25 years and still doesn't have his citizenship. Until the last election made me mad, living better than he ever could of in his home country. We don't ask much, vote, pay taxes, be productive.

Then it dawned on me I'm glad he's not, he'd vote for the same failed socialistic policies which is why his parents left.

Sandy P | 2005-04-23 08:31 | Link

Perusing Daily Pundit I found this:

San José Pizza doesn't cost a bundle
As a further datum point on the cost of living in Scandinavia vs. the rest of the world, via the proxy of pizza, I offer this: Friday is pizza and beer day (afternoon, anyway) in my office, and four (4) large (45cm dia.) pies plus two (2) two-liter bottles of coke plus six (6) six-packs of beer ran to $60.00 pretty much on the nose, inclusive of tax and delivery. That was enough food and booze to victual my entire office of 16 people. OK, some of 'em don't drink that much, some of 'em don't eat much pizza, but that's still a lot of nosh for three Jacksons.

UPDATE: here's the way it broke down:

http://www.dailypundit.com/newarchives/001224.php#001224

So, what's the Norway breakdown?

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-23 16:01 | Link

Sandy:
I know this is going back to the same old Iraq and who likes who stuff, but yeah.. I do think Bush is a moron, but so does a large part of American population. Oh, and yeah, I still don't buy the 'lets give them freedom, it really is not about oil-talk'.
But.. I am not going ballistic of what Bruce Bawer thinks. I mean, if he is being sent to Norway of all places, he must surely have pissed of his boss somehow (humour intended).

I have been to the hospital a couple of times, and my father was at the hospital once. We were not placed in the hallway.. I'm also quite grateful for the Norwegian healthcare now that I'm in Melbourne as well, because even if I hurt myself down here, I'm covered by my government, now thats what I mean by taking care of your citizens.
When I'm writing this thing here, I'm also starting to wonder why so many Americans are having trouble trusting their government, because I actually do trust my government, and I've never had any reason not to.

Now, there are plenty of things I do not like about Norway, which Bruce might have been better off writing about, and that is 'Janteloven'. The effect of jealusy in success. Now that is something I truly can't stand. And yeah, I generally find the people here in Melbourne to be more open and friendly in public areas than in Norway. But.. that is only when it comes to strangers. Norwegians seem to focus more on getting things done, than chatting to strangers over the cashregister or in the bus. Otherwise I see no difference. Actually I find that once you know people in Norway, they are just as warm as the people here.

Sandy, when it comes to treatment of illness and education, don't you think everyone should have a fair and equal chance in order to compete at even levels, and ensure success to the people that deserve it? It's not like our societies can't afford it, I mean we are richer than we have ever been, and we built these social structures when we were poorer than we are now, and they have been working ever since.

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-23 16:09 | Link

Yea im sorry Susan, that was stupid, I had just posted it when when I realized that.

But I was all in alerted state over those comments, I actually thought if it could be Joshka Fisher, however spelled.

Øyvind, Mechelen | 2005-04-23 19:01 | Link

PK:

Actually the only thing I assumed was that you would answer yes on both of those questions. That answer speaks volumes.

Now, for the next - and more difficult - questions.

You see, PK, I am a socialist. Unlike those bastards in the Progress Party or amongst the Concervatives I do not even have any problem admitting it. I have even read Marx. Of course, I do not like his writings much. They are extremely boring and sometimes they are quite scary too. I have read books by Red Emma and I have voted for the Commies. Several times. I have taken part in study circles, I have held study circles myself. I think I have a pretty clear idea of what the ideals of socialism are.

However, I do not see that many of those ideals in the Norwegian society. Sure, there is social democracy, and the welfare state, and a only partly privatized oil company, but if all the large parties are so socialist; WHY is it partly privatized? Why are new telephone companies and power suppliers growing like a thousand flowers? How come the differences in the paychecks off bosses and workers are increasing and not decreasing? Why was the last, and in reality politically appointed, bishop of Oslo not a radical, but a concervative Christian?

Or to enter the cliches, to enter the ideas you probably have of what socialism is, why do we have freedom of speech? Why are Norwegian cinemas not running Chinese movies, but American ones?

How come I have more friends who have gotten scholarships to go the States to study than I have friends that have gotten the same to go to Cuba or Northern Korea (no, I do not know anyone who has gotten that)? Why are Norwegian media filled with success stories, glamour and wealth and why is this portrayed as an ideal, instead of portraying sturdy workers and solid farmers as ideals?

Øyvind

PK, Sun Valley | 2005-04-23 19:36 | Link

Ah yes, I forgot. Even the bishops in Norway are appointed by the government. What a bastion of private sector choice this country is... Not

Even China and Cuba has capitalist enterprises within their midst. That doesn't make these regimes any less of a statist nightmare. 65% of GDP related activity in Norway is tied into the public sector. Hardly a capitalist trait.

Just imagine having Norwegian politicians running for office in the US.

Krf/Venstre would have been laughed off the stage as a leftist joke.

Someone running on Arbeiderpartiets platform would probably garner less than 0.1% of the vote.

SV/RV politicians would probably be banned and thrown in jail, as required by the US Supreme Court decision in Yates v. United States.

Sandy P | 2005-04-23 20:21 | Link

Because it doesn't work, Oyvind?

Or, maybe it's time to try fresh ideas?

Sandy P | 2005-04-23 21:04 | Link

--I do think Bush is a moron, but so does a large part of American population. Oh, and yeah, I still don't buy the 'lets give them freedom, it really is not about oil-talk'.--

I think his IQ is higher than Cash-N-Kerry's.

Yeah, that's why we're paying market prices at over $50/bb.

Actually, I think a study was recently done proving W's more intelligent than Cabana Boy. But, Cabana Boy can't be too stupid, 1st ATM was worth about $300 Mil and the 2nd is now worth about $3 BILLION.

Must be his perfect phrench.

----

When I'm writing this thing here, I'm also starting to wonder why so many Americans are having trouble trusting their government, because I actually do trust my government, and I've never had any reason not to.--

You can trust your King, Allan, but we've had 228++ years of being taught not to. Again, back to the beginning - monarchy whether mutated or not (unelected 1, unelected brusselsprouts) - or liberty.

As I told you before, we're very simple to understand, but it seems to the world we're very complex. Read the Dec of Independence, the charges are there.

--when it comes to treatment of illness and education, don't you think everyone should have a fair and equal chance in order to compete at even levels, and ensure success to the people that deserve it? It's not like our societies can't afford it, I mean we are richer than we have ever been, and we built these social structures when we were poorer than we are now, and they have been working ever since.

Nice try, Allan, won't fly. No Child Left Behind - thanks to 40-odd years of "progressive thinking" our kids are stoopid. My parents were smarter and my mom graduated HS and my dad dropped out, got his GED - General Education Diploma. My mom had 1 pr of shoes at a time and for the 1st 12 years lived in a 20x20 converted garage w/an outhouse.

--ensure success to the people that deserve it?--

Who decides who "deserves" it? What determines who gets it, qualities?? Schooling?? Knowing "the right" people - like how the frogs choose their candidates??? There's the "king" again. And once again, we're back to the beginning.

Define "success."

Again, America is about equality of opportunity. You want to try and become Gates, fine. You want to be a drug dealer, you also have that opporunity and a shorter lifespan. Failure builds America, Allan, not success. Take a look at restaurant failures. Should we ensure they all succeed?

As to basic medical care, Oregon, for example, has a different set of priorities than the other 49. Americans do have basic medical care. BTW, we're not as fat as previously thought. The Centers for Disease Control, IIRC, was WRONG.

Here's some more "nuance" for you. I believe it was in Washington State or Oregon, was going to institute of $5 co-pay for med visits. A single mom was interviewed, she didn't know how she was going to pay it - (sniff), she's poor - $25K/y (and I don't know if that figure included bennies), IIRC. She said she would either have to drop her computer or her cell phone to make sure her daughter could visit the dr. on a regular basis - $60/yr, if 1 visit a month, unless my calculations were wrong.

Most of America's "poor" live the middle-class 1970s lifestyle. And keep in mind America surpassed European living standards around 1900. I grew up middle-class, Allan. I am now a stay-at-home mom, but I was a secretary in my previous life, certainly a "middle-class" job. My husband barely passed high school. We just bot a 3000 sf. home.

That is what makes America great.

Google Mawi Asgedom - look at what/where he came from. He is going places, he is and will continue to be an American success story. And he's not the only one. And there's millions more like him.

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-23 21:17 | Link

The cinemas are running Chinese movies when they are good, one very good was "to be".
They don´t run bad chinese movies, they are far from us, but they do run bad Norwegian probably, and bad American movies.
And maybe even a bad from Scandinavia here and there right ? besides the good ones, as HUH "Jalla, Jalla". "Blinkende lygter" HEHE.

Anyways the core of European Politics, atleast scandinavian is not socialist, nor is it right wing - liberal. It´s social democratic/liberal and privatization seems to be doing better than economic democracy ( the idea that workers own and thus profit from enterprises - multiple capitalists ) atleast the social democrats dropped any idea of ED.
The welfare state is agreed upon by most of the people and thus most of the politicians in broader lines. And I think personally it´s dogmatic to assume that it is bad and can´t work, but also not a good idea with paying high taxes getting no better return than could have been acheived with lower taxes. The fuel in economics is buying power, and growth in general as far I understand it is about initiative, innovation, and initialize. Shares are a temporary risk, maybe a success, maybe a failure, but investments are needed before we can have a GNP contributor, and GNP contributors are necesary to provide profit with endurable costs. I am going into a mumbo jumbo state sorry.

More buying power would open doors to more production, more merchandize and thus employed and if monopoly monoliths can be kept at bay, new companies perhaps from less developed parts of the world.

A social welfare system doesn´t come free and though I support it, I find it should come at as little cost as possible, and there should be competition in all fields rather than the option of doing a bad job and getting away with it.

But US is not without welfare, and social security, etc. either. It is two sects of christianity, so to speak, disagreeing :)
The question is what level of social security and at what cost.
Capitalism is elitarian and competive, but it is what fuels the economical and material growth we have.
It would be wonderful if we could stop using money tomorrow and still all would go to work and do their best, food production boosted and noone starve to death, everyone share a couple of spades and go dig some holes, and have a work and income.
But reality just doesn´t work that way, and socialism tend to strangle growth rather than boosting it, even when they just do little reform work.
But there should be social security, a way to survive as unemployed, education, libraries, health care of course, only crazy social darwinism ideology idiots would disagree with that.
After all people do get unemployed, get back problems, psychological problems etc.
But protection can go to far and create to little go get it mentality and opportunity.

Sandy P | 2005-04-23 23:52 | Link

Oyvind?

Bill Quick - Dailypundit who coined the word "blogosphere" has answered your question better than I ever could. Bill's a libertarian. Quite an interesting background, he's a writer living in San Francisco.

This is the article he's commenting on:

Reactionaries To The Core
To Dems, it's 1974 forever

Today's Democrats dislike democracy on principle, like Russian nobility circa 1905. Should Bush be allowed to pick federal judges merely because Republicans won the presidency, the Senate, the House, the country? No way! And why let the people decide about homosexual marriage when left-wing judges can make the law? Connecticut's governor just signed a law approving civil unions for gays and also stipulating that "marriage" means a man and a woman. Whatever you think of the outcome, this is democracy — Schumerite Democrats should check it out.

Many people have noticed that today's political scene is confusing, hard to read — Republicans wanting to save the world, Dems shouting "mind your own business." Republicans worrying about poor people's stake in society, Dems muttering "wake me up when it's over." Republicans sticking up for Israel, left-wing anti-Bush rallies toying with anti-Semitism. It's all terribly confusing, until you notice that you are looking at the picture upside down. Once you understand the Big Switch, everything starts to make sense.

This is his take:

Conservatives have supplanted liberals as the true progressives in the world today. And the reasons for the switch aren't at all difficult to discern. After sixty years of liberal rule in the US, most of the policies in place - the very same policies that are crashing and burning now (affirmative action, social security, medicare, welfare on demand, gun control, abortion, high taxes and income redistribution, the destruction of personal responsibility, the rejection of democracy and federalism, big government itself, and on, and on) are the ones that conservatives question and want to change. But liberals put them in place, and so will defend them unto death or utter failure. Of course the liberals are the party of reaction - if you ever doubted just how much influence liberalism has had on this nation, just look at what the liberals don't want to see changed.

Pretty much everything, isn't it?

Sandy P | 2005-04-24 02:35 | Link

BTW, via Bros. Judd, another one for the vaunted Canuckistan utopian health care system:

Patients fed up with long waiting lists in Canada are fuelling a fast-growing demand for brokerages that arrange speedy service in the United States as well as in Quebec's burgeoning for-profit medical industry.

Brokers and other similar companies say business has as much as tripled over the past year as Canadians apparently become more comfortable with paying for diagnostic tests, second opinions and even surgery.

They say their patients include not only the wealthy but also middle-class people willing to take out second mort gages or lines of credit to pay for faster care.

Driving the move are Canada's lengthy waiting lists for many medical procedures. A study last year found Canadians waited an average of 8.4 weeks from their general practitioner's referral to an appointment with a specialist in 12 different medical specialties, then waited another 9.5 weeks for their treatment. Those wait times are almost double what a similar study found in 1993.

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=c3a1e310-0627-4ffa-9b26-6ae788a3ea57

They're pouring in 41 billion loonies over the next 10 years, approx 10% of our population, they have no military to speak of, 80-85% of their trade is w/us, they have a hell of a lot of water and oil which we need AND they're STILL relying on our "horrible" system to get care.

Sandy P | 2005-04-24 02:35 | Link

mort gage is a questionable word????

Sandy P | 2005-04-24 02:42 | Link

And here's 2 comments on same on Bros. Judd:

Comments

That's what I find so amusing about socialized medicine: the poor suffer the most. The purpose of socialism is to spread out the misery to all equally. The only chink in the Canadian system is the private system next door.

Posted by: Tom C., Stamford, Ct. at April 23, 2005 04:56 PM

I get my appointments here in Canada and treatments - if they are speedily available. all paid for by the government. When there's an extended wait required, I take a trip across the border for immediate care, which I then deduct from my taxes as a medical expense - gas, food & hotel bills included.

Thus it turns out that the Canadian government does pay in part for those American expenses as well, plus I get to avoid other Canadian taxes by buying cheap gas, liquor, beer and cigarettes - among other items.

Unintended consequences. . .

nils, oslo | 2005-04-24 12:13 | Link

I see all the papers on the net now run articles on disposable income compared across Europe, showing that Norwegians do not do as well as previously believed. But none of them mentions US numbers. Too embarrassing? Or out of line with agenda?

Thomas and Sandy: Lots of good points and quite informative. The nice thing about economics is that you have facts and you can compare across borders. Even if there are structural differences that sometimes make numbers not directly comparably, you get a very good indication.

May there actually be some kind of causal relationship between the degree of freedom a state gives it’s citizens and the prosperity it achieves?

nils, oslo | 2005-04-24 12:22 | Link

Thomas: “Anyways the core of European Politics, atleast scandinavian is not socialist, nor is it right wing - liberal. It´s social democratic/liberal and privatization seems to be doing better than economic democracy ( the idea that workers own and thus profit from enterprises - multiple capitalists ) atleast the social democrats dropped any idea of ED.
The welfare state is agreed upon by most of the people and thus most of the politicians in broader lines. And I think personally it´s dogmatic to assume that it is bad and can´t work, but also not a good idea with paying high taxes getting no better return than could have been achieved with lower taxes. The fuel in economics is buying power, and growth in general as far I understand it is about initiative, innovation, and initialize.”

Sounds to the point in my opinion, I agree, but the size of the state is a problem. It demands high taxes and slow down groath. I think that a downsized public health care system in competition whit private alternatives and maybe some sort of mixed public/private financing might be better. But social democratic dogmas is a hinder in trying new solutions. Socialists immediately start whining about creating inequalities. The foremost slogan in Norwegian social democracy is “equality, equality, equality”, remember.

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-24 14:25 | Link

Sandy:
Arg, always coming back to the stage of nationalistic ranting. I've spent way to much energy earlier trying to disassemble these ranting as what they are. Not this time though, I'm not falling for it..
Oh, and most people on average wage (350 000NOK pr year?) can buy themselves a house in Norway as well.

Øyvind, Leuven | 2005-04-24 16:19 | Link

Sandy:

Frankly, I am having problems with understanding what American Democrats and their opinions on gay marriages has to do with anything I asked about.

Øyvind

PK, Sun Valley | 2005-04-24 18:12 | Link

>Allan, Melbourne wrote:

>Oh, and most people on average wage (350 000NOK >pr year?) can buy themselves a house in Norway ?>as well.

Well, anyone can buy a house with a bank loan.

It is just a lot tougher for Norwegians, given that their disposable income on a 350 000 NOK wage is substantially less than a similar wage in the US.

Not to mention that the size and amenities of most new houses in Norway is less than what you would expect on a middle class wage in the US.

Sandy P | 2005-04-25 19:55 | Link

--May there actually be some kind of causal relationship between the degree of freedom a state gives it’s citizens and the prosperity it achieves?--

nils, you heretic you.
You're going to be cast out or burned if you dare question their wisdom.
---

Allan, it's not "nationalistic." The things we strive for know no borders, they are universal. There are certain truths we hold self-evident. The world can have it if they want, they STILL choose not to. Haven't you ever noticed that? 228++ years, it's messy, loud, boisterous, but it works. But the world deliberately chooses not to try it. 60 years ago, Europe could have risen from the ashes, but we can't do that, it's not our way. Because of certain countries' ego and delusions of grandeur, your way is falling off the cliff. You *Europe* refused to learn, adopt and adapt. Only now do some say Europe will have to adopt certain American-style business practices or you can't compete. But of course, with your "social and economic" standards, can't exactly remember what that quote was.

Italy STILL hasn't completed 1 post-WWII gov't yet!

Thru feast, famine, civil, world wars, elections go on every 2 years. We are the world's longest democracy/constitutional republic. Deal with it. It is something to be proud of.

You are living in an anglosphere country, Allan. Magna Carta, Allan. It's not American - it is Greek, it is Roman, it is English and others, we just pushed the bounds. OUr Founding Fathers took were very learned men, especially knowledgeable on Western Civilizion and flipped our collective WC history on its' head and decided to try it another way. And that's what gets you guys. This grand experiment was never supposed to work.

You *the world* live in fear. You *the world* don't get it. You *the world* don't want to fail. But again, it's that failure - that spectacular failure - which is why we're successful. Europe has about the same amount of entrepreneurs as America, but your tax structure kills them. Socialism is killing your economic engine. The pie is able to get bigger if you know what you're doing.

Europe doesn't get it because it has a 3-400 years bias against US, (we were "European" for the first 150-odd years, and you guys can't see the forest for the trees. You accuse me of being "nationalistic," but you are also being nationalistic in the way you are defending socialism - which is Olde Europe. Contrary to all the evidence accumulated in the 20th century which proves it doesn't work.

But that's only because the "right" people aren't in charge yet, right?

I'm not being nationalistic, Allan, I would like for the world to live well. But earning it yourself gives a person a special sense of satisfaction, contentment and purpose which handing on silver platters don't. Why do you think there's so much guilt among certain segments of "the rich?" Not enough to give most of their money away, but they certainly "feel" for the oppressed.

Since you're down there, you should start reading John Ray's Dissecting Leftism blog. Lots of goodies there.

---

Oyvind - you are a socialist, you stated that there are differences in Norweigan parties and to "prove?" you're country's not socialistic, you pointed to how certain parties are going "right." Bill's comment has told you why, better than my response to you. My memory's not so good, weren't a few postings above?

---

Thomas, when the world is wired, you won't need bricks and morter libraries. Just like dead trees (newspapers), they're on their way out.

-----

350,000.00 NOK
Norway Kroner = 55,829.64 USD
United States Dollars
1 NOK = 0.159513 USD 1 USD = 6.26907 NOK

$55K is about the median wage in the US. Or is it the average? I keep getting those 2 confused.

US breakpoint for voting pubbie from dem is between $50-60K.

Just for fun, go here, plug in different cities and states and see what you can buy for $55K.

Italy STILL hasn't completed 1 post-WWII gov't yet!

Thru feast, famine, civil, world wars, elections go on every 2 years. We are the world's longest democracy/constitutional republic. Deal with it. It is something to be proud of.

But that's only because the "right" people aren't in charge yet, right?

Since you're down there, you should start reading John Ray's Dissecting Leftism blog. Lots of goodies there.

---

Thomas, when the world is wired, you won't need bricks and morter libraries. Just like dead trees (newspapers), they're on their way out.

-----

350,000.00 NOK
Norway Kroner = 55,829.64 USD
United States Dollars
1 NOK = 0.159513 USD 1 USD = 6.26907 NOK

$55K is about the median wage in the US. Or is it the average? I keep getting those 2 confused.

US breakpoint for voting pubbie from dem is between $50-60K.
--May there actually be some kind of causal relationship between the degree of freedom a state gives it’s citizens and the prosperity it achieves?--

nils, you heretic you.
You're going to be cast out or burned if you dare question their wisdom.
---

Italy STILL hasn't completed 1 post-WWII gov't yet!

Thru feast, famine, civil, world wars, elections go on every 2 years. We are the world's longest democracy/constitutional republic. Deal with it. It is something to be proud of.

But that's only because the "right" people aren't in charge yet, right?

Since you're down there, you should start reading John Ray's Dissecting Leftism blog. Lots of goodies there.

---

Thomas, when the world is wired, you won't need bricks and morter libraries. Just like dead trees (newspapers), they're on their way out.

-----

350,000.00 NOK
Norway Kroner = 55,829.64 USD
United States Dollars
1 NOK = 0.159513 USD 1 USD = 6.26907 NOK

$55K is about the median wage in the US. Or is it the average? I keep getting those 2 confused.

US breakpoint for voting for pubbie from dem is between $50-60K.

If you want some fun, go here for US housing stock. Plug $55K in a mort. calculator and see what you can buy where. Now, they've really loosened the mort gage standards, tho, so maybe you really can't afford what it says.

http://realtor.com/Default.asp?poe=realtor

Sandy P | 2005-04-25 20:46 | Link

2 more tidbits:

1. The Mayflower Pilgrims tried socialism for the 1st 3 years. Didn't work, then they went to a market-based system. Puts the Indians sharing their food in a new light, eh?

2. IIRC, the average US house size is now over 2000 sf. Or it could be the median....

Sandy P | 2005-04-25 20:50 | Link

Via No Pasaran:

http://dailyablution.blogs.com/the_daily_ablution/2005/04/land_of_equalit.html

Land of Equality vs. Land of (False) Opportunity
Jonathan Brown at the Independent presents an interesting little item today, covering a social mobility study ("of eight industrialised nations [sic - the study is actually of seven industrialised countries and Canada]"), which is critical of UK and US income equality trends....

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-26 00:19 | Link

"Sounds to the point in my opinion, I agree, but the size of the state is a problem. It demands high taxes and slow down groath. I think that a downsized public health care system in competition whit private alternatives and maybe some sort of mixed public/private financing might be better."

Nils

I agree with this I am not a social democrat, but I am not a social darwinist either.

Susan

I for one like to read a book sometimes, you can lie down/lean back with it, take it to the beach :), on a walk in the mountains etc. I don´t think books are totally out, they will not cost much more than an online book anyways and PDF files tend to be shared a lot, there will be commercial push for books as well.

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-26 11:22 | Link

Thomas: I sure do agree with your view on books. Its a lot harder reading on the screen. I think however, that Susan was referring to newspapers.

Susan.. still ranting I see.. It would be a lot easier to read your postings if you did not write such long posts, glorifying US with every breath.
Well, I'm still not convinced, and I'm afraid I never will be. :p
Perhaps one day, I will read your constitution, have heard lots of good stuff about it. I also heard there is not much left of the spirit that it was written with left in the US, except perhaps the east and west-coast areas..

nils, oslo | 2005-04-26 13:12 | Link

Thomas:

Nils

I agree with this I am not a social democrat, but I am not a social darwinist either."

Who the Halle Berry is talking of social Darwinism? And spit that kartoffel from the back of your mouth before speak to me again, Dane!

No, I like my social security. It could be organized more economical for all parts, if politician just dared think outside the frames of old dogmas. A combination of much higher privatization, financing by insurance and substantial tax cuts could do that. Some “social levelling” could be done by subsidising insurance for individuals successively based on income (what’s the word for that?).

Privatizations in much greater extent would be competing against the public services. Public provides a basic health insurance for all, an insurance that covers emergencies and maybe a range of other services we might considered essential. Then, to get the full package you would be obliged to contribute yourselves trough additional insurance. This additional insurance could again be graded into different price classes based on service level and extras. To keep some degree of “social levelling”, state could subsidise the lowest income groups, including those on welfare, based on income. All this possible only by significant tax cuts, both private and companies. Which again leads to raises in income level for the middleclass. Which again inspire people to work harder and more cleverly to become a part of this well off middleclass?

What I mean is, let the market do as much as the market can do. Positive extra-effects of the (semi) free market are for free. (there is a word for that kind of effect, I just cant find it) We shouldn’t pay for things that can be had for free, should we? And to that comes this feeling described by someone earlier in this thread, that feeling of succeeding, achieving your goals.

This would be good bye to the depressingly boring, community-grey carpet social democracy has become. Life has become so boring and restrained; people literally become disabled by it. The numbers of people on disabled-pensions are sky high and so are the numbers of people suffering depressions and committed suicides. Not to speak of sick-leaves due to presumably psycho-somatic sufferings. There must be something fundamentally wrong in a society when those kind of numbers are so high. And it’s not because we work so hard. We don’t. Most of us loaf around on the lower gears. We’re simply short on freedom and purpose; we suffer thereof.

We are physically well taken care of by the nanny state. But we are being wrapped up in all kinds of restrictions by the nanny state. Carefully fothered with social democratic propaganda, led to believe we’re soo rich, soo best and most compassionate in the whooole wide world. Therefore Bawers article might be dangerous, it might hit a crack in the hexed mirror.
----

Sandy:
The main reason no European country has changed it’s political system in direction of the successful, prosperous and stable American system is spite and envy. We just don’t want to give you the satisfaction of being right.

Please excuse my creative English. As we say in Norway: need teaches nude girl to knit.
Nils

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-26 16:34 | Link

And I alway considered potatoes as boring unless spiced up and put in the stove:)

No I wasn´t accusing you of being a social darwinist, just said it in connection with not being a social democrat myself, which I thought you thought myself was :)

I agree there should be competition in all fields, including health care, and a lot of other stuff, and subsidized medicine should be removed, it is just a costly way for both consumer and state to make medicine companies rich :)

And a lot like "children´s pay" it is now being removed for those with high income, before all got it don´t matter what they earned.

Social pay down, for people where there are actually jobs in the area, even more down until someone taken those jobs.

But besides the biggest saving lies in getting people out working - that means creating more jobs - thus more tax payers and less tax consumers.
They claim we got 5.9 unemployment but I would think in reality it´s about 10 %.

Once we get unemployment down we can increase it again by thinning out in the bureaucracy, tranfering hopefully jobs to the productive fields.

I believe by the way that the state should make corporations especially in fields where there is monopoly or hidden agreement about keeping prices up, and besides in areas not covered by local manufactorers.

And these of course should lead to a profit for the state, otherwise be closed down if they can´t, thus substitute some of the tax burden.

I am a political heretic and I am proud of it:)

PeeWeeMadman | 2005-04-26 16:42 | Link

When it comes to unemployment, the work participation rates in the nordic countries are actually not lower than those in the US. That is a fact that is always neglected in such debates.

Sandy P | 2005-04-26 20:44 | Link

-- need teaches nude girl to knit. --

Depends on what they look like and location, location, location!

I think you meant Sandy, Allan. No, Allan, glorifying Western Civilization. But thank you for attempting to label me "nationalistic." As I wrote before, Niall Ferguson gave you 4 possibly choices, you prefer one of the other 3 which makes sense on a certain level. Kind of what you're comfortable with.

--I also heard there is not much left of the spirit that it was written with left in the US, except perhaps the east and west-coast areas..--

Ohh, aren't you funny. You are joking, aren't you?

Can't find time to read our Constitution? Why? It's not that draft monstrosity of the EU. Won't take that long.

I'll start your homework for you, since I have it linked (as I do w/the EU Constitution):

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/help/constRedir.html

Bill of Rights is even shorter.

PeeWee | 2005-04-26 21:14 | Link

## This would be good bye to the depressingly boring, community-grey carpet social democracy has become.##

Why is life in Scandinavia so boring? There have been no studies confirming that. Rather, those surveys that have been done by people like the "world happiness database" actually seem to imply that people in the nordic countries are the most happy people in the world, together with the swizz and americans, that actually are ranked equal to the norwegians, and slightly below Sweden and Denmark. And people are not that happy with their lives in welfare state less societies like Japan and Taiwan.

## The numbers of people on disabled-pensions are sky high##

Twice as much as the US, still, there still is about 6 percent of the population on disability in the US also. Also, it may have something to do with the tolerance of pain you are suspected to whitstand. In the US, you may have to work on even if you have a painful limb. Also, one of the most disabled groups are older women. This is a group that more often are supported by their spouses in countries like the US. Some of the groups that does not work in Norway because of disability, doesn`t work in the US neither.

## and so are the numbers of people suffering depressions and committed suicides.##

Actually, suicides in the nordic countries are not that high. They are higher in quite a few other countries. Also, there are more criminals in other countries, and certainly in the US! Crime has been reduced by putting a whole of a lot of people behind bars in the US, and I wonder what crime rates the US would have had, had they had a danish sized prison population.

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-27 03:23 | Link

"I think you meant Sandy, Allan. No, Allan, glorifying Western Civilization. But thank you for attempting to label me "nationalistic"
I'm saying that your ranting is nationalistic, there is a difference there..
But I guess we have side-tracked, don't you think?

PeeWee: You have any numbers on comparative prison populations between the countries?
Why is it that older women are supported by spouces in US, and the government in Norway?
Is it because they have no choice in US?

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-27 03:29 | Link

"Crime has been reduced by putting a whole of a lot of people behind bars in the US, and I wonder what crime rates the US would have had, had they had a danish sized prison population."
What do you mean? That they could have halved crime by doubling the prison population?

Susan | 2005-04-27 04:48 | Link

LOL! I knew before opening this thread that some body would start ranting about our (US) healthcare system! What is it with the European obsession with American healthcare! It's like a cult or something.

Erin: the experiences you describe with your Norwegian inlaws are hardly exclusive to Norway. From my experience, most/nearly all Western Europeans love to shove it in our faces about our healthcare, crime rate, blah, blah blah (but mostly the healthcare!) I met a Dutch woman (a far left-winger, natch) on another board who insisted that 200 million Americans live at subsistence level (i.e. two-thirds of our population!) It's just laughable, the stuff they fall for. One would think that people who pride themselves so much on how educated and sophisticated they are, would not be falling for these country bumpkin tall tales the Europress writes for us.

Allan, most older disabled women are probably supported by their husbands because most older Americans would be ashamed to take "government hand-outs." You socialists don't understand us or our culture very much. All the bragging you do about your welfare states doesn't impress a lot of us at all. Many of us -- especially the older generation -- still believe that taking a "government handout" is something to be ashamed of, certainly not something to brag about.

It's like that cowboy thing. The European sneering and ranting about our "cowboy" president -- and we're supposed to hang our head and shame and say, "yeah, he's a cowboy."

In our culture, a cowboy is a good thing. A cowboy stands for things that Americans value highly, such as individual effort, self-reliance, free-spiritedness, mastery of man over his environment, a code of honor. Everytime you sneered at "cowboy" Bush, you were actually paying him a compliment.

The same is true with the welfare state thing. Every time you brag about your government handouts, you're trying to one-up us on things that we think are, frankly, embarassing. Few
Americans would brag about being on Medicaid or food stamps.

Oh and before anyone brings up the other tired old (ignorant) chestnut, be aware that the US government does not spend more money on the
military than on social programs, education and pensions combined. The annual federal expenditure for Medicare and Medicaid alone (Medicare is the government system for the elderly and disabled) is nearly $600 billion. The US federal budget is posted online at several mirrored sites and you can check it out for yourself (although few W. Europeans actually do this.)

I wonder why it is that W. Europeans are always trying to shove it in our faces about how wonderful their socialist systems are? Perhaps they suspect deep down that they are not all that wonderful?

Confident people don't constantly brag about how great they are.

PS -- I'm a bit peeved that people confused me with Sandy P. I don't constantly brag about how great the US is -- however I will defend my country from the inaccurate ramblings of foreigners who think that 2/3rds of my nation lives at "subsistence levels" or other nonsense. I also find this trait (of bragging about one's country) very unattractive in W. Europeans, and I try to stop myself from exhibiting the same trait.

Susan | 2005-04-27 04:57 | Link

Re: US crime rates. Homogenous nations like Norway or Japan have lower crime rates than those with more diverse populations. It just works out that way. I'm sure there are loads of sociological explanations for this, I'm just not interested in scouting around for links.

US has always been more diverse than Europe. But, I understand from reading your media, your crime rates are also exploding as you become
more "diverse" as well. The overall violent crime rate in France and the UK is comparable or higher than the US, although we, unfortunately, still have a higher murder rate. Although that
too is coming down here.

Erin S. ~ Olympia, WA | 2005-04-27 05:56 | Link

"LOL! I knew before opening this thread that some body would start ranting about our (US) healthcare system! What is it with the European obsession with American healthcare! It's like a cult or something."

Susan: I know! It just boggles the mind, does it not? My husband and I have laid awake many a night discussing this very bizarre, obsessive preoccupation that many Norwegians seem to have. And it is as he says: Don't let it bother me as the majority of those (Norwegians)who like to belittle the U.S. are usually those who have never set foot in this country or have spent in considerable time with an American to justify such opinions. They will quite literally repeat to you, verbatim, some anti-American or negatively-slanted op-ed piece about America that they read or saw on the tellie and proclaim that it is a fair and accurate description by some reliable and trustworthy "expert" and therefore the "truth."

And those that have been to this country (such as a friend of his there in Trondheim and his Danish wife) absolutely love it here. Go figure! When ever these friends go on holiday, 9 times out of 10, they come here. The most embarrasing thing for me is that they have been to more States then I have! They would damn near do anything to be able to live here. But unfortunately it is not that easy for them to immigrate here. So, in a couple of months they plan on visiting for 90 days. It is the next best thing for them.

The best approach for me to take when it comes to such prejudiced remarks (like those about our healthcare system, our welfare system --or lack thereof (in their opinion), our judicial system, blah, blah, blah... is just smile sweetly and tell them how disheartening it is for me that they hold such a low opinion of the U.S. That as an American, a rather proud American mind you, I would like to hear more positive remarks, but hey! You can't win them all!

Then I usually offer up my hospitality to them telling them the next opportunity they have to travel abroad, why not visit the U.S.? Particularly my neck of the woods? I would love to show you the sites and some good old fashion American hospitality.

*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*

Susan | 2005-04-27 07:52 | Link

Elise, believe me, your Norwegian friends aren't that bad, compared to some of the experiences I've had with Western Europeans. To wit:

Shortly after 9-11 I was on a talkboard and was subjected to a smug, ultra-morally superior lecture from a Western European about how Amerikkka would shortly start putting our Muslim inhabitants in concentration camps in reaction to 9-11.

Guess what nationality this charmer was?

You guessed it -- Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles.

To be lectured about "concentration camps" by a freakin' German, aye-yi-yi. . .this is the kind of weird lack of self-awareness I've seen from many Western Europeans -- Amerikkka is the worst thing on earth, it's worse than India or any Third World nation, and their own societies by contrast are so perfect and wonderful, their sh*t doesn't even smell.

17 percent real unemployment rate in Germany, but still, their sh*t doesn't even
smell. . .

Susan | 2005-04-27 07:53 | Link

Sorry, I meant the above post for Erin, not Elise.

PeeWee | 2005-04-27 08:45 | Link

## You have any numbers on comparative prison populations between the countries?##

Yes, I have seen numbers that tell that the ratio of males in prison are over then times as high in the US as in Denmark and Norway.

## Why is it that older women are supported by spouces in US, and the government in Norway?
Is it because they have no choice in US?##

It is because fewer women are in the workforce in the US, therefore, they are supported by their husbands, not the government. When disability pension are available, women that usually would be supported by their husbands now take a disability cheque also.

## US crime rates. Homogenous nations like Norway or Japan have lower crime rates than those with more diverse populations. It just works out that way.##

And it may just as well be that the western european countries are also getting a "going nowhere underclass". Still, it still is a fact that prison populations in the US are much higher than elsewhere, so the number of criminals as opposed to crime have still not reached the US levels. Also, the minoritites we have in Europe are much more prone to violence than those who goes to America. Actually, there are few problems if any with latino immigrants in Europe, and blacks south of the "islam belt" are also among the less problem prone minorities.

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-27 22:13 | Link

Peewee the reason why our prisons are not so full is because people don´t get long sentences, with got plenty of people walking the street, with several violent offences, but first when they kill someone they will go in jail 6-8 maybe 10 years.
Sweden is more violent than New York City in terms of assaults, robberies, rapes, everything but murder. But Sweden also don´t punish people for long, and recently they put a murderer on the street after 3-4 months because they had no room in their jails.

Anyway sorry about your experience with a German Susan, but French and Germany are Rivals to US, they are superpower aspirants and find they are morally Superior, bullocks, go to Denmark or Norway next time :)

But still you gotta see at how the Germans were doing before the Berlinwall came down and reunion started, it´s taken it´s toll on Germany, Germany and all of Europe was much better going the reunion and I have to add before the EU centralbureaucracy started to waste 40 % of our politicians time, and make laws as they soon as they can fly but not swim.

nils, oslo | 2005-04-28 09:21 | Link

Thomas,
The potato was referring to an old and bad joke we have, thought you might had heard it: how to teach an Norwegian to speak Danish. –You just put a piece of potato in the back of your mouth. It works to some degree :))
(why did I start telling jokes in here?)

Bye the way, not my intention to imply you were a social democrat. I sort of read it between the lines :)

PeeWee:

Thee percentage on disabled pensions is close to 10%. Sick-leave is 6,4%. Suicide 5,6 per 100 000. My point wasn’t that we are highest, but we are comparatively in the highest segment for all these numbers. In spite of the biggest welfare state in the world, those numbers are really high. And I’ve hear of this happiness-survey you mention. Biggest problem with such surveys are phrasing. And people might find it difficult answering “not happy” as they are being told they live in the best and richest country in the world.

With the enormous welfare state we’ve developed, shouldn’t we expect these numbers to be much, much lower than e.g. the “horrible” US? We have a 37,5 hours work week and strong restrictions on overtime. And claiming you have to work trough heavy pain in the US sounds like an accusation of torture in the American labour market; socialist propaganda.

This suggests the welfare state is oversized. It could be restructured so that we could benefit from the mechanisms of the free market, though compensating the worst side-effects. That would take some balls, unfortunately not something we can accuse our politicians of having.

But the whole extremist idea of a society without differences in wealth between the working and middle class is counterproductive. It takes away an important incentive for people to improve their lives. And that feeling you know (or maybe not) of achievement should not be underestimated. It’s a better and more economically sound solution to enable people to take responsibility for their own lives and destiny.

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-28 11:41 | Link

Thomas:
"Sweden is more violent than New York City in terms of assaults, robberies, rapes, everything but murder. But Sweden also don´t punish people for long, and recently they put a murderer on the street after 3-4 months because they had no room in their jails"
Any sources for those statements?

Susan & Sandy:
Oops.. sorry, the text phrasing was so similar I just assumed it was the same person. Sorry about that..

"some good old fashion American hospitality"
But of course, I did not know that hospitality was an American invention..

I think Americans are seriously sick of being talked bad about, and whenever they think they sniff a bad word about USA, they go into terminator mode. Well, no need for that in here guys, like Øyvind said on his website, its hard for Europeans to hate you, with all the snaxxy TV shows, and other good things being produced in USA (I do see a trend that the good stuff is from the coastal areas though), we hardly complain lately as well.
BUT.. my theory is.. when you've grown up your entire life hearing that your country (USA) is the greatest nation on the planet 5 times a day, hearing someone (and especially Euroweenies) might outdo them in some areas, must be heartbreaking..

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-28 15:21 | Link

"Bye the way, not my intention to imply you were a social democrat. I sort of read it between the lines :)"

Nils:

Heh well feel free, it always easier with a category to put people in.

Heh yes our language sounds coarse to foreign ears and we are aware of that, we only have the Dutch and Arabs to point on as having coarser language :) To reply we think you Norwegians sounds like you are "singing".

Allan:

Link to man released after after 90 days ( in Swedish but you understand ? )

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,633314,00.html

Here is comparison between New York and Sweden :

http://www.stefangeens.com/000422.html

http://www.e.kth.se/~strang/blog/archives/2004/08/new_york_a_mode.html

Anyway crimeprevention has worked tremendously in New York, should be looked into how they did this.

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-28 15:27 | Link

And here is a extra little piece in Swedish, watch how crimes soared in Sweden since 1990:

http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint/?module_instance=4&name=Sammanfattning04.pdf&url=/dynamaster/file_archive/050330/a01748d2b2c30b26573c7c7ebde3985d/Sammanfattning04.pdf

Erin S. - Olympia, WA | 2005-04-28 16:59 | Link

"I think Americans are seriously sick of being talked bad about, and whenever they think they sniff a bad word about USA, they go into terminator mode... "

"BUT.. my theory is.. when you've grown up your entire life hearing that your country (USA) is the greatest nation on the planet 5 times a day, hearing someone (and especially Euroweenies) might outdo them in some areas, must be heartbreaking... "

That's right, Allan in Melbourne... You go right ahead and keep telling yourself that. Here in America, we are definitely all about pursuing happiness. So, please, grab a hold of that crutch called "America/Americans are disillusioned" and hobble about convincing yourself of whatever it takes to make you feel better about yourself. And I will try my damnest to hold my feelings in check the next time somebody puts my nationality or country down.

""some good old fashion American hospitality"
But of course, I did not know that hospitality was an American invention.. ."

Whoa there, Nellie! Try losing the bug up your ass. I did not insinuate that hospitality was an "American invention." But I am proud to say that Americans have perfected hospitality to a science.

Your passive-aggressive nature is peeking out behind that there keyboard of yours. Maybe you should get more kip. Or perhaps take up a hobbie.

Say! I have an idea, the next time you go abroad on holiday, why not consider visiting Seattle, Washington? My family and I would love to show you the sites...

Your American Friend,

*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*

Sandy P | 2005-04-28 20:17 | Link

Geez, don't visit for a couple of days.

I feel for you, Allan, no time.

You don't understand red America, I suggest you listen to talk radio while you read blogs - no time to research who to listen to, I give you suggestions. No time to google?

Discuss economics, I suggest you read Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics, A Citizen's Guide to the Economy - no time to read. Maybe PJ O'Rourke's "Eat the Rich" tho somewhat outdated might take your fancy.

No time to read my "nationalist rantings."

No time to read our founding documents to try to understand US, I think Lincoln gave his Gettysburg Address in 4 minutes.

A lot of Americans are in the blogosphere to learn and discuss. The American blogosphere is very vibrant. I certainly didn't know as much about Canadian HC as I know now.

You might want to find the time to learn, the Chicoms might be invading Taiwan in the next 2-3 years and Ozland will most probably have a ringside seat.

We've been at this for at least 6 months, you don't understand US, fine. But you're never going to understand uS if you don't even try. But maybe that's really it.

Sandy P | 2005-04-28 20:44 | Link

--BUT.. my theory is.. when you've grown up your entire life hearing that your country (USA) is the greatest nation on the planet 5 times a day, hearing someone (and especially Euroweenies) might outdo them in some areas, must be heartbreaking... "--

Or being told all our lives by "the world" that we suck and don't take it personally, we're just trying to give constructive criticism.....

I'm just curious, outside of The Revolution (which no country wanted to give us money after) WWI and WWII, when were we ever "liked?"

OR - after 9/11 we're not going to sit and take it anymore and the net allows US to do that. See, Allan, to "keep the peace" we took it for decades. We really don't want to make waves, but now we have to.

Correction - w/Walt Whitman's post, took it for a couple of centuries.

There's a couple of very interesting comments in Bjorn's archives from 3(?) other American females bet. the ages of 30-62, IIRC. While correlation is not causation....

In short, maybe your theory needs more nuance.

---

Susan, I spent 3 years in The Independent's chat room discussing America before they closed it. Same Old S - Nam, Pinochet, oppression, Kyoto, treaties, evil capitalistic hoarding wealth fascist-nazi-- jackboot religios zealot warmongers, (did I miss anything??) HC, guns, and an archaic 18th century document which has no place in the 21st century.... Allan thinks it's bragging, I prefer to think some of it is comparing apples to apples. It always goes back to our beginning. we're the ones that got away. And more importantly, stayed away. And w/the net, we can link to not only American stats, but stats by "the world" comparing apples to apples.

In some of "the world's" mind, even saying anything positive about America is bragging.

--

--And here is a extra little piece in Swedish, watch how crimes soared in Sweden since 1990:---

Don't forget England. They should surpass US in about 10 - 15 years. Crime is falling in the US.

Allan, Melbourne | 2005-04-29 04:33 | Link

Sandy and Susan:

Sandy, I will read the constitution very soon, during the summer(June-July) I guess. I will, I promise. Only now I have a thesis to finish before end of May, and my head is already filled with all other useless info.

"But I am proud to say that Americans have perfected hospitality to a science."
Need I comment?

"That's right, Allan in Melbourne... You go right ahead and keep telling yourself that. Here in America, we are definitely all about pursuing happiness. So, please, grab a hold of that crutch called "America/Americans are disillusioned" and hobble about convincing yourself of whatever it takes to make you feel better about yourself. And I will try my damnest to hold my feelings in check the next time somebody puts my nationality or country down.
Your passive-aggressive nature is peeking out behind that there keyboard of yours. Maybe you should get more kip. Or perhaps take up a hobbie."

No need to get personal.. Your responses speaks volumes of your nature Susan. I don't think there are any needs for me to comment on this, it will only degrade even more into a flame-war.

Oh, and the word for it would be sarcasm by the way.

I wonder, why is it that I have seen no Norwegians going as ballistic as you guys in regards to that Bruce Bawer story? I think I've gotten my theory (from my last posting in this thread) confirmed quite nicely already.

Audun Solum, Bjørkelangen | 2005-04-29 07:27 | Link

Allan, Melbourne :

Well, I am Norwegian and I think Bawer has a lot of good points, as do the Americans posting on this thread.

As to the "ballistic" comment, it seems clear to me that many Norwegians overreacted to the Bawer article. It was covered in major Norwegian print media, and many Norwegian blogs.
Hardly "normal" behavior regarding an article printed in a foreign land?

It there is no doubt that it hit a sore point with many Norwegian, maybe because it has a lot of truth to it?

I think so.

David Elson, Australia | 2005-04-29 09:58 | Link

"You might want to find the time to learn, the Chicoms might be invading Taiwan in the next 2-3 years and Ozland will most probably have a r
ringside seat."

So? You may be forgetting Australia's long standing alliance with China.

I think there is something to Allan's theory. It's important for our American friends to understand that no nations are inherently great.

It's the specific actions that result from certain mindsets, not the theory or ideology independant of action that determines a nation's position.

While I greatly admire much about America, and believe that America has avoided many of the follies of Europe, I can't honestly say that America has avoided all folly. What country can say that it has??

A failure to change, a failure to recognise mistakes is a failure to improve and to be and remain great.

Cheers,
David.

Knut, Oslo | 2005-04-29 21:49 | Link

Sandy P wrote:
I feel for you, Allan, no time.

You don't understand red America, I suggest you listen to talk radio while you read blogs - no time to research who to listen to, I give you suggestions. No time to google?

Do you know if I can listen to american talk radio from the web? Any live stream or webcast?

PK, Sun Valley | 2005-04-30 01:56 | Link

Knut,

Almost all talk radio is available on the net. I know for a fact that Rush, Medved, Sean Hannity and Hugh Hewitt has livestreams, since I listen to them all the time.

I give Talk Radio and the Blogshere great credit for the rise of conservative/libertarian power in the United States.

I often wish that talk radio would get started in Norway, since media there is so infiltrated with leftists.

Thomas Bolding Hansen - Denmark | 2005-04-30 03:03 | Link

"It there is no doubt that it hit a sore point with many Norwegian, maybe because it has a lot of truth to it? "

Well maybe Norway like Denmark is just a little country where nothing much happens :)

Basically we should be happy if someone even notice we are here :)

Sandy P | 2005-05-02 05:34 | Link

David - like I said, what makes US a success is our spectacular failures. We fail every day and most learn from their failures after a couple of times. We also learn(ed) from Europe's failures - and our Founding Fathers said don't get involved in their internal disputes). They refuse to learn from ours, check out EU Referendum's latest post. Because that might mean we were right and we can't have that.

Also, interesting article on Nam over at Bros. Judd.

---

One person's ballistic could be another person's passion, Allan.

No wonder why your head's full of mush, you're in school. That explains a lot, oh, the innocence of youth!

As to the China alliance, there's more than 1 way to skin a cat. Is Ozland going to choose them? Or help US when they can in the background, not necessarily hard militarily but soft like intel?

------

Here's a few tidbits via Daily Pundit:

If you outlaw guns…

Metropolitan police cops just blew away some guy who apparently was on his way with some associates to rob and kill a Colombian rival. So, no loss. But the article continues with a run-down of serious gun crime in London. The last little bit caught my eye:

In a further incident, armed muggers shot a man at point-blank range early yesterday as they tried to steal his necklace. Four black youths shot the 30-year-old man at about 1am outside the Kentucky Fried Chicken takeaway on Coldharbour Lane, in Brixton, south London.
I used to live in Coldharbour Lane (the Camberwell portion, as did former UK Prime Minister John Major at one time). Kinda brings it home to you.

---

AND

Memories of baking fuel candle maker
Midwestern firm makes $10M from scents

SWANTON, Ohio - At first, she made sweet-smelling potpourri in the basement of her northwest Ohio home.

Twenty-seven years later, Ann Albright has moved up to selling scented candles: $10 million worth last year.

---

Bill coupled that w/this:

US Led a Resurgence Last Year
Among Millionaires World-Wide
By Robert Frank
Wall Street Journal
June 15, 2004

Four years after a stock-market downturn flattened many investment portfolios, a new study finds that one of every 125 Americans is a millionaire -- reflecting a growth rate not seen since the late 1990s, at the peak of the stock-market bubble.

The 2004 World Wealth Report, compiled by brokerage firm Merrill Lynch & Co. and consultancy Capgemini Group, paints a picture of financial resurgence among the world's wealthy. The number of millionaires in the U.S. was up 14%, and the U.S. and Canada together added more new millionaires last year than Europe, Asia, Latin America and the Middle East, combined.

Most striking: the study found that in the U.S. and Canada, the number of ultra-rich -- those with investment assets of more than $30 million -- has reached 30,000, about the same number of people as live in Juneau, Alaska's capital....

---

My parents are almost there, not bad for a high-school-equivalent diploma and a HS grad tire/battery salesman and a secretary/employment mgr.--

They were middle/working class people.

There's a book titled, "The Millionaire Next Door."

No secret, same house, stable marriage for 30 years, owned his own company, drove used cars, saved, clipped coupons, no real extravagances. One comparison was a dr. making about $700K, IIRC, but up to his eyeballs in debt. We have more than 1 story of people making average wage and willing a couple of million or more to charity.

One, IMHO, is still better off in America in the trades, good to great money, better hours, less stress than getting a lot of initials after your name. Because for the past couple of decades, parents wanted their kids to go to college, want more and better for their kids and now the trades have a shortage. We're moving into a service economy, it will be wrenching/wretching, but we must and will adapt to survive and prosper. But they won't allow GM to fail. It should, and so should some airlines, but we'll see what happens.

As someone posted at DP:

As Mark Twain said over 100 years ago:

"The world seems to think that the love of money is "American"; and that the mad desire to get suddenly rich is "American." I believe that both of these things are merely and broadly human, not American monopolies at all. The love of money is natural to all nations, for money is a good and strong friend. I think that this love has existed everywhere, ever since the Bible called it the root of all evil. I think that the reason why we Americans seem to be so addicted to trying to get rich suddenly is merely because the opportunity to make promising efforts in that direction has offered itself to us with a frequency out of all proportion to the European experience."

---

Europe doesn't have the mindset - you don't allow people to fail and you don't have accommodating tax laws. And that's saying something since our corp taxes are some of the highest in the West.

Via EU Referendum:

According to the ddp news agency in Berlin, German trade unions are blaming companies (i.e., employers) for the mass unemployment. In his Mayday speech at the central rally in Mannheim yesterday, DGB [Confederation of German Trade Unions] Chairman Michael Sommer complained that "naked greed" prevails in the boardrooms of many companies.

He criticised "the increasing lack of responsibility among managers," who often regard employees' rights just as an obstacle. A new policy is needed to curtail these "misguided practices", he said.

IG Metall [Metal Workers' Union] head Juergen Peters called on the federal government to take "concrete steps" as a result of the capitalism debate. It is necessary to implement EU-wide minimum standards with regard to wages and company taxation, as well as a coordinated, EU-wide investment programme, and publicly subsidised employment, he said....

----

Socialism kills, free markets feed.

David Elson, Australia | 2005-05-02 09:24 | Link

David - like I said, what makes US a success is our spectacular failures. We fail every day and most learn from their failures after a couple of times

I don't disagree with you. Kudos for understanding the part that mistakes play in learning and continuous improvement. I believe that it was an American business leader that said every mistake is a sucess, just so long as you learn from it.

and our Founding Fathers said don't get involved in their internal disputes
So maybe you should still listen to them! LoL. So far it appears that America does indeed take a great interest in many of the internal disputes of both Europe and the EU. Many of these action however are things that I agree with. For example the US, and EU support for democratic election in the Ukraine.

They refuse to learn from ours, check out EU Referendum's latest post. Because that might mean we were right and we can't have that.

Now you're assuming that you're right and any deviation from your model is somehow a mistake. Nice way to contradict your earlier points. We need Europe to make their own kinds of mistakes and sucesses in policies, in systems implementations. In this way we can discover ways of improving our own, both in terms of things to avoid, and workable ideas to try.
As to the China alliance, there's more than 1 way to skin a cat. Is Ozland going to choose them? Or help US when they can in the background, not necessarily hard militarily but soft like intel?
Short of some extreme situations, its unlikely that Australia would risk its relationship with the new Asian power. As obvious from the PM's behaviour, Australia intends to keep to its agreements with all of the power brokers in the Asian region; Japan, America, Taiwan and of course China. It's unlikely that Australia will toss away its hard won advantages in relation to these nations.

As for intelligence, be careful... Can you name which nation was cut out of access to American intelligence during the cold war, as punishment for selling it to the Soviets?

A good link for Germany's concepts of capitalism:

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/04/spd_comrade_mue.html

If you outlaw guns…
You get less gun related crime?

"There's no connection between owning a gun and killing somebody with it, and not owning a gun and not shooting anybody. And you would be a fool and a Communist to believe otherwise!"

David, Australia | 2005-05-02 09:27 | Link

http://www.poisonedminds.com/tests/dic/

You answer the question: "what if Hitler was black?" A power-mad little shit that will do anything to keep your backside in the presidential seat, that's what! Sadly, no matter how much you persecute your populace, they are getting sick of you! When given the option of starving to death because of the piss poor economy you created or stringing you up by the nearest lamppost, more and more find the later more attractive! Also shave that stupid, little moustache off! It makes you look like an even bigger tit then you are already!

What tin-pot dictator are you? Take the "What Dictator am I?" test at PoisonedMinds.com

Sandy P | 2005-05-02 18:31 | Link

--Now you're assuming that you're right and any deviation from your model is somehow a mistake.--

And what model is that? We're constantly in flux.

--We need Europe to make their own kinds of mistakes and sucesses in policies, in systems implementations.--

There's the rub, they've been making the same mistakes for at least a generation now. And they're about to make an even bigger one. They don't learn, David, that's the point. When I've read in our business sections for the past 15++ years, we can't do that, that's the American way, we're not Americans, so they keep heading toward a museum.

--Japan, America, Taiwan-- on 1 side

China on the other --- in which the anti-Japanese "protests" are starting to get out of control. Ozland will "sit it out" like some of our other "historic allies" in Iraq.

--as punishment for selling it to the Soviets?--

Hmmm, don't know if selling lets out frogistan or not.

I've been reading DM for from almost the beginning. They're model isn't working, that is a point of this conversation. We're at 3.1% growth for this quarter and we're "sluggish."

What would frankenreich do for that #? Well, we know what they won't do. Adapt more of our way.

Sandy P | 2005-05-02 18:43 | Link

Via Econopundit, Ray Fair's Fairmodel:

Fairmodel has been re-estimated and re-run. Here are the basic numbers from the forecast memo:

Real Growth and the Unemployment Rate: The predicted growth rates for the next four quarters are 1.9, 2.3, 2.6, and 2.4 percent, respectively. These growth rates are enough to keep the unemployment rate unchanged at 5.3 percent. The jobs variable, JF, is predicted to increase in the four quarters by 1.6, 1.8, 1.9, and 1.8 percent, respectively.

Ray Fair is at Yale, he has models for many different things.

---

Sandy P | 2005-05-02 21:15 | Link

--So maybe you should still listen to them! LoL.--

We did. Twice - the response was, "You're late."

We also didn't draw borders of certain countries which were at each others' throats for a long time.

But it has fallen to US to fix them at a great personal cost.

David Elson, Australia | 2005-05-03 10:44 | Link

Sandy,

If you are constantly in flux, than in order for the EU to constantly oppose, they must consequently also be changing.

There's the rub, they've been making the same mistakes for at least a generation now. And they're about to make an even bigger one
Where is this evidence of a continuing escalation to unworkable policies? Germany's focus on the supposed evils of Capitalism is depressing to say the least, but they've reduced taxes and pushed forward on other important reforms.
Likewise for other European nations. Besides, many US policies; huge budget spending, borrowing, subsidies, large goverment departments, trade wars, quotas etc.. are not dissimilar to their euro equivalents.
As for the big mistake. Most Germans actually oppose the propose EU constitution (why do you think their MP's didn't allow it to go referendum?) and apparently many French do too.

As for China, I think everyone would agree that its against the interests of Japan, America, and Taiwan for any sort of violence were to errupt. We all know what happens to the common man when dependant trade partners butcher each other.

Sandy P | 2005-05-03 18:23 | Link

Where's the evidence?

Gee, I don't know, why don't we look at the world. Economic slowdown in Japan, if not a 10 year+++++ recession -- slowdown in Europe, which means we slow down.

we can't do it all.

Do you want a list or economic blogs I read? Not faithfully, other than econopundit.

What we're telling each other is get your own house in order, that way we'll be able to get our house in order. But if the EUSSR wants to become the rival, you guys have a long, long way to go.

Other Variables: The federal government budget deficit is predicted to be around $440 billion in the next four quarters (on a NIPA basis). (See the predicted values for SGP.) By the end of 2008 it is predicted to be $592 billion.

The U.S. current account deficit (variable -SR in the model) is forecast to be around $780 billion in the next four quarters (on a NIPA basis). By the end of 2008 it is predicted to be down to about $700 billion.

----

Get oil under $40 and we'll start bubbling.

David Elson, Australia | 2005-05-04 13:29 | Link

we can't do it all.

Not sure anyone's asking you too.

Do you want a list or economic blogs I read?

Nah it's okay. Unless you post it with something else. One word posts aren't that interesting.

I really don't think that the old "you do it, and than I will", cuts the mustard!

Shouldn't the massive (by your own admission) budget deficits of the US be regarded as problems for global prosperity, in the same way you're pointing the finger at the EU.

Oh well, at least your posts are not as bad as this comical link: http://www.la-mancha.net/archives/000720.html

Sandy P | 2005-05-05 04:13 | Link

Via No Pasaran, for you, Allan:

Speaking of Ronnie, and with the European constitution in the news cnstantly, take a moment to read the following quote:
I had a copy of the Soviet Constitution and I read it with great interest. And I saw all kinds of terms in there that sound just exactly like our own: 'Freedom of assembly' and 'freedom of speech' and so forth. Of course, they don't allow them to have those things, but they're in there in the constitution. But I began to wonder about the other constitutions -- everyone has one -- and our own, and why so much emphasis on ours.

And then I found out, and the answer was very simple -- that's why you don't notice it at first. But it is so great that it tells the entire difference. All those other constitutions are documents that say, 'We, the government, allow the people the following rights,' and our Constitution says 'We the People, allow the government the following privileges and rights.' We give our permission to government to do the things that it does. And that's the whole story of the difference --why we're unique in the world and why no matter what our troubles may be, we're going to overcome.

------------

David:
-----------------------------------------------
GOVERNMENT DEBT AND PENSION LIABILITIES AS PERCENT OF GDP (1990)

===net conventional debt=======net pension liabilities

CANADA===52================121
GERMANY==22================157
ITALY====100================259
UK=======27================156
US=======35=================90

Source: Essays on Pension Reform, Max Alier PhD Thesis, University of California LA, 1997; quoted in R.E.A. Farmer, Macroeconomics, South-Western, 2002, p. 162.

---

---Not sure anyone's asking you too.---

Then why all the angst about our financial situation? Have you ever really listened to "the world?" $ too high, $ too low, they're never happy. I'm going back at least 2 decades. yip, yip, yip.

--Besides, many US policies--- Governments aren't flexible, I'm talking about our people.

---

Just in case you want to peruse, econopundit, Conspiracy to keep you poor and stupid and Marginal Revolution.

For a weekly roundup, Carnival of the Capitalists.

Sandy P | 2005-05-05 06:50 | Link

Timing is everything, David:

...In January, Bush administration officials projected that the streak would continue, with a deficit of $427 billion for the fiscal year that ends Sept. 30. But that estimate was widely regarded as inflated and many forecasters believed the total would be more like $400 billion.

April, however, turned out to be a far better month than anticipated. Taxpayers were confronted with unexpected tax bills, many from capital gains and the alternative minimum tax, a parallel income tax system designed to hit the rich but that is increasingly pinching the middle class. The Treasury announced this week that it will repay $42 billion in federal debt in the third April-to-June quarter, instead of borrowing $12 billion.

Wall Street analysts reduced their deficit forecasts this week, from around $400 billion to around $370 billion....

David Elson, Aus | 2005-05-07 00:35 | Link

I see.. so record levels of debt may fall to slightly less record high levels of debt, but only at the expense of the tax payer.

I suppose when you have the highest gov deficit of all time, the differences between 427 billion and 400 seems somewhat minor.

Those figures you provided before are outdated (15yrs or so), the last Forbes article I read, mentioned something about record levels of household debts and and high levels of personal bankruptcies...

Not to mention rates of childhood poverty.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/4307745.stm#map

And the rankings of the UN's Human Development Report, showcasing the benefits of a number of Euro countries.

As for the whinging world. THat's the nature of media in an interconencted world. we all complain about "black" workers, cheap third world imports and the level of the dollar. Don't take it personal. I don't there are any countries that have never complained about at least one of their trade partners.

The US dollar increases [relative to the Aus $], up goes exports, and domestic producers, down go importers. The US dollar decreases, down goes exports, up goes imports and purchasing power.

Big wop!

Sandy P | 2005-05-12 20:27 | Link

11 trillion economy, David, do the math.

Ronnie's was higher.

I read the article, what constitutes income? As we know, the devil's in the details. I'm sure some geek picked the report apart somewhere.

The figures I provided were some of the latest used for the report which was from 2002.

You think those numbers have improved or worsened?

Especially the pension figures? Europe is older than we are, and is projected to widen the age gap.

Check out our 2000 census, mine it yourself.

RW Heritage Org did, the poor are living the 70s middle-class lifestyle.

Sandy P | 2005-05-12 20:51 | Link

http://roomtwelve.blogspot.com/2005/03/child-poverty.html

Just the 1st I found and it is quite easy to stay out of poverty, 3 easy things:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba428/

Chris Vea, Chicago | 2005-05-23 21:37 | Link

Wow! What an ubelieveably entertaining thread. I've only managed to read through about one half of the total contents, but I would like to offer my two cents:

I was born and raised in Norway in an area where large portions of the population at one point or another emmigrated to the US. Even large parts of my extended family have either lived in the US, or are living here now. I have lived in Chicago for a number of years, but I still go home every summer.

I have to say I'm not surprised by the postings by some (like Sandy) who are either married to or have Norwegian blood in their families. Most of the people I know who left Norway in their 20s or earlier and have lived in the US to this day seem to have developed rather skewed views of Norwegian society. In a lot of cases I think it is simply the result of a human need to leave something behind, to settle, and to be able to say "this is where I belong, this is where I need to be". Interestingly though, whenever Americans come to visit my family in Norway, we are constantly reminded by them of how much better everything is in the US. How much bigger their cars are, how much bigger their houses are aso.. On the other hand, when I talk to young Americans in the US, they're the ones telling me about how frustrated they are with their system, and how their parents had to work two or three jobs just to put them through a mediocre community college, how they will again be forced to work 10-12 hour days their entire lives for ridiculous wages, just in order to make rent and be able to put food on the table, how their grandparents are living in a run-down trailerpark and still flipping burgers at the age of 70, and perhaps most unfortunately, how they grew up virtually never seeing their parents.

I discovered early on that Americans are not interested in hearing about Norway, or any other country for that sake, and I never talk about it unless I'm asked, but I have to say that general welfare has a long way to go in the US. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet most of the American bloggers here are well-off, middle-class citizens, and believe me, there are many things you have more than likely not seen. I know many Norwegians who have lived their entire lives in safe suburbia US, and still haven't seen any notion of the excruciating poverty and crime that infests many areas. And ironically, they don't even want to talk about it because that is simply not "their US".

It is also just fantastic when I talk to Norwegians who emmigrated in their mid-twenties to the US, and now talk about all the supposed "socialist propaganda" in Norway, and the horrific state of the system. And before they left the country they grew up with at least average public schools, parents who were actually present in their lives, financial child support, reasonable child-care, free medical insurance, a free university degree, and financial student aid from the government. How easy it is to forget... And yes, maybe your parents weren't driving around in big environmentally unsavory SUV and they brought a packed lunch to their workplace, but what in the world did that have to do with your general welfare?

I am also stunned by the Norwegians who emmigrated 40 or 50 years ago, and now complain about the tax-levels and gas-prices, while they've managed to get a dual-citizenship while living in the US, so that they can get Norwegian health benefits and pensions because even though they worked their entire lives in the US, they cannot live off their pensions in the US.

But back to the point; Yes, maybe we seem rude to you, but that is a cultural phenomenon. It is the equivalent of someone from outside of the US claiming you are all "fake". When someone has a problem with that it is usually because they are not very well educated on other cultures. Since I happen to have taken many social science courses both in American high schools as well as in Norwegian high schools, I think there is some work to be done on both sides.

It is also true that Norway as a country is far too concerned with what other coutries think of us. But perhaps that is natural given the size of the country.

As far as Bawer's comments on "matpakke" and the state of the cars used in Norway, that simply makes me feel naucious and kind of embarrassed as someone who certainly thinks of himself as part-American. Did someone say arrogant? The comment that we don't throw away things and use things until they break gives me the same kind of feeling. In what world is that not a good thing?

(Stuart Miller has some interesting thoughts on materialism in "Understanding Europeans". A book I ironically used to further my understanding of Americans.)

God knows, at least I know where my children will be raised: Somewhere I will have time to be with them, to raise them, and somewhere I'll be able to have a life outside of my work. If that means paying a large portion of my income to the government instead of where it goes now (to the various insurance companies, and other purely corporate interests) I will not hesitate for second.

I don't know how old, what you do for a living, or where all you bloggers live, but I don't think we live in the same United States. Please tell me where you are located and I'll come over and take a peek over the fence, it sure sounds nice over there...