Tonje takes on the Islamophobes. Update: Tonje and I are now officially psychopaths. Coming from these guys, that's actually an honor.

Islamophobia makes as much sense as Naziphobia. The term is meaningless. It implies that Islam is innocent victim of misinformation and unreasonable fear and that once one learns the truth about it the phobia will go away. Nothing can be farther from the truth. The more one learns the truth about Islam the more dangerous and spiteful it looks. Only a fool or a quisling can afford not to fear an ideology of hate that aims to conquer the world through deception and terror and take away his freedom.

Edvin Vik
Antipsykopatisk Senter
www.antipsykopat.info

Is it wrong for a black person to be KKK-phobic or apartheid-phobic? For a Jew to be Nazi-phobic?

In what Muslim dominated state are non-Muslims free from persecution and religious racism?

Is it wrong for us Western people to look at the Christians of Indonesia, the Copts of Egypt, the Hindus and Christians of Pakistan, the Armenians of Iran, the Assyrians of Iraq, the Alevi of Turkey, and say, "We don't want to share their fate?"

How come no one has ever answered this question intelligently on this blog?

All your mocking of us comes to naught, unless you can answer that question intelligently and convincingly.

How come you pro-Islam-apologist people can't answer that simple question?

"Is it wrong for a black person to be KKK-phobic or apartheid-phobic? For a Jew to be Nazi-phobic? .. How come you pro-Islam-apologist people can't answer that simple question?"

Because it's a dumb question. As dumb questions go, it's up there with "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" The question makes an assumption it shouldn't.

Susan,

part of the answer is because the question you raised never occured to some of those apologists and islamophiles.

additionally there are those extreme leftists who 'cherished' islam as a counter-point to whatever the current establishement that they are against would represent....and then there are those who are so mired in self-loath that they would quip " islam is what muslims believe islam to be " or some such innane and insipid nonsense..............

..........and then furthermore you have those who would sacrifice any commonsense or good moral judgement on the altar of the God of multiculturalism ..holding onto some academique ideology that no one culture is superior to another etc etc..

...interestingly a majority of those supra-islamophiles and leftist apologists are male homo-sapiens and a few female quislings - pathetic broads that are willing to sacrifice their sisters-at arms against the hordes of Eeklam and sundry forces of androgeny hell-bent on enslaving womenkind !

Sister Prasad Meenachi Bhagavatam

Jay! Sri Sri Maha Saraswati Jayy!
O Great Goddess Vanquish the dark lords of Eeklam !

excusez-moi Bjoern,
"
Because it's a dumb question. As dumb questions go, it's up there with "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" The question makes an assumption it shouldn't. "

there you go again Bjoern - denigrating Susan'
statement and categorizing a legitimate and very to the point question as " dumb" .....Well Mr. Strong Bear, let me tell you this - the only thing 'dumb' in all this is your willingness to so quickly shoot down Susan's legitimate question about why ex: a new should not be nazi-phobic or a non-muslim should not be islam-phobic ( given that the tenets of islam parallel that of Nazism .....oh and please don't tell me you disagree with me on that too, and if you do , then you really need to go back and take a course in islam 101 , and not from ex-kkkristian or the likes of him either ).

Frankly if i were less astute and did not know your thinking process, i would be dumbfounded to hear someone dismiss such brilliant and cogent statements about how jews should naturally experience Nazi-phobia........but knowing that you are a faux-centrist, i am not the least bit surprised. At least Oeyvind has the honesty to admit that he is a radical leftist somewhere in the blog.

.....and furthermore her (Susan's ) question did not make an assumption, it is a statement backed by historical and current facts. Oh and that comparison to the '''beat your wife stuff'..you know is just bull shit haaaaaaaaaah.

Sister Prasad Meenachi Bhagavatam
just a tat bit disappointed with you Bjoern
you gotta do better than that ...you really should !

Okay, it's a dumb question! But bear with a dumb-ass like me for a while.

I understand it's extremely dumb to be worried about my daughter ending up like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4387604.stm

I understand it's extremely dumb to be worried about someday, my parents' church being subjected to this:

http://freecopts.blogspot.com/2005/10/more-images-from-alexandria-church.html

I understand it's extremely dumb for me to be
worried that someday my vocal criticism of Islam will result in my being forced to live in a
maximum security prison like this:

http://dutchreport.blogspot.com/2005/02/wilders-in-prison.html

I understand it's extremely dumb for me to be worried that someday, bombs will be routinely exploded in my city's square, killing scores of people, like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4391544.stm

I'm just a big dumb dope to be worried about trivial stuff like this, nothing to see here, just relax and drink the purple Kool-Aid and all will be fine.

We won't get any real answers from anyone here, Kim -- just more offers to drink the purple Koolaid.

You can quote chapter and verse until you are blue in the face from all the Islamic sharia apartheid laws that discriminate against non-Muslims in the exact same manner as Jim Crow law discriminated against blacks, or the Nuremburg laws discriminated against Jews, and still you will get, "What a dumb question -- why would you be afraid of this?"

I hope there are more Islamoapologists out there who can address my questions more intelligently than Bjorn.

Once again, in case there is any confusion, my question is simple:

Is it wrong for non-Muslims to be "phobic" that one day we will be treated in our countries the same as non-Muslims have been treated in every one of the 50+ countries in which Islam predominates?

Susan, your question (not you) is dumb because what we disagree about is not how to feel about the religious equivalent to the KKK, but whether or not Islam is the religious equivalent to the KKK. Your question then is just a way of saying "Islam is like the KKK", and not a question at all.

The same goes for your worries. Of course you should be worried if Islam is totally evil. But if it isn't, you shouldn't be. Your whole line of argument is meaningless, because all you do is describe how much we should fear Islam if we assume that you're right about it, which we can't. You're trying to cheat your way out of actually explaining what it is that makes Islam the religious equivalent of the KKK, or nazism, or apartheid.

"Of course you should be worried if Islam is totally evil. But if it isn't, you shouldn't be."

Bjorn, do you distinguish "evil" from "totally evil", or do you just use the adverb "totally" for emphasis?

I would say that Islam is evil, but not "totally" evil. I guess you could say that it is "sufficiently" evil to be of great worry.

Bjorn,

I have posted many things straight from the sharia here about how non-Muslims are to be treated under Islamic law, and I've received nothing for it except ridicule, obfuscation (Oeyvind calling?), tu quoque inanities about Christianity, and other deflectatory tactics.

Maybe Islamic law is not the equivalent of Nazism, but for sure I believe it is at least the equivalent of Jim Crow. Since you're not American Jim Crow probably doesn't mean much to you, but it means a lot to me.

I am old enough to remember vividely the Civil Rights movement in my own country during the 1960s (RIP Rosa Parks.)

The excuses and denials the Islam apologists
make for dhimmitude and Islamic supremacism are nearly word-for-word the same kind of denials I used to hear from white racists on my TV as a girl and even from some old-time relatives who grew up in the Southern border states. Their words and phrases and denials are very familiar to me.

PS In case you haven't noticed, Paris is burning right now, and the French police are talking civil war. But those of us who prophesied civil war in Europe from Muslim immigration/colonization are just dumb ol' right-wing Islamophobes, nothing to see here, just move along, just drink the Kool-aid and try not to notice the smoke.

Bjorn,

I suggest reading the collected works of Madame Bat Ye'Or, the world's leading authority on the people of the dhimma, and what they have suffered under Islamic law, before you criticize my comments further.

Every day when I read the news coming from Islamia, the works of Mrs. Bat Ye'Or ring truer
and truer.

Have you read any of the works of Mrs. Bat Ye'or?

This is what traditional shariah of the beautiful religion of Islam demands from a poor 8 yr old boy caught stealing bread because of extreme hunger.The Quran (5:38) demands this
'exemplary' punishment for theft.

Do not view if you are faint hearted. His hand is being amputated by being run over with the wheel of a car.

This is the beautiful shariah which peace-loving muslims practise and which Ibrahim Hooper the mouth-piece of american muslims and other die hard apologist are straining to peacefully introduce into the western world !

click link below to view gut wrenching picture of amputation of the arm of an 8 yr old boy caught stealing bread in iran !

...........did i hear someone say Islam is a beautiful religion? or did I hear someone say Islam is what muslims believe it to be ?

http://bareknucklepolitics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=126#126

Sister Prasad Meenachi Bhagavatam

i have not posted in awhile, mostly because i do not have much to say these days. but i am compelled to comment and make a correction to kim sook-im's last post regarding the 8 year old boy having his arm/hand amputated.

just as you cannot judge a book by its cover, nor can you claim a picture does not lie. it does not lie, however the story behind it can be false. in this case, the little boy is not having his arm amputated for stealing a loaf of bread, but rather performing a super human trick for a show. think of it as falling under david letterman's "stupid human tricks" category.

PER LGF dated today:

"LGF reader Baikal emailed about these upsetting pictures posted by Bareknucklepolitics.com with the title: 8 Year Old Iranian Boy Caught Stealing Bread. Those readers who were skeptical of the title, it turns out, were correct; Baikal contacted the publisher, Peykeiran, and after a confusing exchange received the following reply:

Hi!
It seems you have not read the text that came with the pictures.
In irna
there some who earn their bread by Maareke giry. In our case one
of these
maarke gir _ha had hired a kid to do those unhuman show.
You read the text that came with photos.
bye"

erin :o)

And the banlieus still burn - day 6. Denmark day 4 or 5.

----

allan, if you read this, I think this is for you and multiculturalism, via Gates of Vienna:

Multiculturalism rests on the supposition—or better, the dishonest pretense—that all cultures are equal and that no fundamental conflict can arise between the customs, mores, and philosophical outlooks of two different cultures. The multiculturalist preaches that, in an age of mass migration, society can (and should) be a kind of salad bowl, a receptacle for wonderful exotic ingredients from around the world, the more the better, each bringing its special flavor to the cultural mix. For the salad to be delicious, no ingredient should predominate and impose its flavor on the others.

Even as a culinary metaphor, this view is wrong: every cook knows that not every ingredient blends with every other. But the spread and influence of an idea is by no means necessarily proportional to its intrinsic worth, including (perhaps especially) among those who gain their living by playing with ideas, the intelligentsia.

Reality, though, has a way of revenging itself upon the frivolous, and September 11 has seemingly concentrated minds a little. Some signs indicate that in Blairite Britain the pieties of multiculturalism, for years an official orthodoxy, are beginning to face a challenge.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_3_oh_to_be.html

O.k. Erin,
..even if the pictures were misunderstood , and were in actuality a 'stupid human tricks' stunt, it is still bad to be exploiting an 8 yr old child for this circus act. Furthermore , we cannot be too sure since Peykeiran could well be just another lying source of misinformation under the wicked influence of eeklam.

At any rate there are plenty of galleries of horror perpetuated by followers of the peaceful religion of eeklam, mercy sent to mankind !- beheadings, stonings, amputations etc.. are a reality of life in those countries under the spell of Mohammad . The primitive and barbaric shariah is what the muslims would like to import into and export to the rest of the world ...even now as we speak honor killings, misogyny ( an important cornerstone of eeklam) is being skillfully practised by adherents of eeklam in Eurabia and the native denizens of Eurabia are turning a blind eye all in the name of multiculturalism and leftism....that is why we hear people say things like, 'eeklam is what muslims believe it to be', and further ' your question is dumb but the writer is not = i hate the sin, but not the sinner LOL.

Voila! a gallery of horrors a la shariah:

http://www.thenausea.com/africa.html
(for sickening video of amputation, scroll down to SUDAN)

http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/300/360/364/364.66/kadi/

http://www.rawa.org/handcut2.htm

http://www.rawa.org/handcut3.htm

Happy belated Halloween

Sister Prasad Meenachi Bhagavatam

No one wants to talk about the burning of Eurabia?

What nation appeased Islam more than France? They gave asylum to the Islamist Khomeini -- now Khomeini's heirs are pointing nuclear missiles at France.

They sucked up to Arafat -- remember that ridiculous French "honor guard" when the old terrorist finally popped off?

They sucked up to Saddam; their media spews hatred of the Ummah's favorite hate objects, the US and Israel, 24/7.

Where has all this gotten them? In the end they are just dirty infidels like the rest of us. Enjoy the new Eurabia, France.

But us dumbass Islamophobes were wrong about all this of course. How ridiculous, how paranoid, were our warnings about the impending civil war in Eurabia! How foolish we look, to say that Islam's followers don't want to assimilate into or co-exist with other cultures! How stupid it was of us to point to the civil wars in Nigeria and Indonesia and Thailand and the Balkans and the Sudan and the Indian Sub-continent and the Middle East and say, "Be careful -- It's coming
here to the West too!"

My, how foolish we look, how stupid we were!

So no one wants to answer my question? Why are we in the West different? Why shouldn't we be afraid of an ideology/belief system that has caused so much DOCUMENTED suffering in so many other different, non-Western, non-Christian cultures? Why should we be ridiculed, name-called, laughed-at, persecuted, simply for stating the bald, uncomfortable truth?

No one has the balls to answer the question, eh?

Oeyvind? Bjorn? Allan from Melbourne?

I guess I win by default then. :)

Fallujah sur Seine - day 8.

Susan: But us dumbass Islamophobes were wrong about all this of course.

Yes.

How ridiculous, how paranoid, were our warnings about the impending civil war in Eurabia!

Yes.

How foolish we look, to say that Islam's followers don't want to assimilate into or co-exist with other cultures!

Something of an exaggeration, in retrospect, indeed.

My, how foolish we look, how stupid we were!

No doubt about it.

Why should we be ridiculed, name-called, laughed-at, persecuted, simply for stating the bald, uncomfortable truth?

Well, I don't accept the persecution you people have suffered. On behalf of the Islam apologists who have imprisoned you, tortured you, murdered you, merely for stating the truth we would rather not hear, I am truly sorry. It's a dark stain on our conscience. If there was anything I could do to undo the anti-Islamophobic massacres and mock trials, the concentration camps and censorship laws, I would. But I can't, and I'm not proud of that. We'll just have to live with it.

As for the disagreement, you deserved every bit of it. In the reality you've chosen to occupy, the violence in Paris is a "civil war in Eurabia". The actions of some Muslims equals the intention of all. And Islam is almost a supernatural force in history, ever present and always malicious. I wish you luck with your reality, but I see nothing in it that convinces me to say goodbye to the randomness and uncertainty of my own.

"The actions of some Muslims equals the intention of all."

Of course not. But perhaps the actions of SOME Muslims can be justified by the teachings of the religion to which ALL Muslims belong. That is a more useful perspective, I think.

Obviously, a lot of Muslims might disagree with certain actions, but that does not matter if they cannot justify their disagreement with the teachings of Islam while the Muslims who perform the actions can justify them that way. It doesn't matter in the long run if Muslims disagree as human beings if they cannot disagree on principle.

Well, I don't accept the persecution you people have suffered. On behalf of the Islam apologists who have imprisoned you, tortured you, murdered you, merely for stating the truth we would rather not hear, I am truly sorry. It's a dark stain on our conscience. If there was anything I could do to undo the anti-Islamophobic massacres and mock trials, the concentration camps and censorship laws, I would. But I can't, and I'm not proud of that. We'll just have to live with it.

Now who's engaging in ridiculous hyperbole? I didn't say Islamo-apolgists were torturing anyone. But certainly there seems to be a witch-hunt going on after Fjordman amongst you and your buddies - and certainly some people are being prosecuted for "hate speech" all over the continent of Europe just for criticizing Islam. Michel Houlebecq, Oriana Fallaci, Brigitte Bardot spring to mind. . .

Okay, I guess the burning of Paris isn't enough for you (shrug). They'll be plenty more of that sort to come along in the future, no need for me to worry about a lack of evidence to support my arguments.

As the great Hindu historian Koenrad Elst once wrote, "We can expect Muslims to act like Muslims wherever they are."

The behavior of Western Muslims haven't proven him wrong so far.

And no, you haven't answered my question, Bjorn. You've just mocked and ridiculed, same as always.

You can't answer the question, that's why you don't.

Is Oriana Fallaci in jail? Have anyone tortured Brigitte Bardot? Was Michel Houellebecq not acquitted?

In a free society people can go to court with their worries. The fact that they do, does not make a society unfree, and it does not constitute persecution. The fact that Tonje, Bjørn or others argue against ideas they do not like, does not make their effort a witchhunt.

But any conspiracy theory needs it martyrs. Just like they need all-evil and all-powerful enemies.

Jim Crow, you say? Europe has had its Jim Crow-laws, as well.

However, Europe has also more than its share off political theories based on the principle of all-evil (and all-powerful) enemies (preferably in liege with the Vatican, just like the traitors Fallaci speak off). History have learnt us that these political theories are more often than not teinted by evil themselves.

Anthony:

"Obviously, a lot of Muslims might disagree with certain actions, but that does not matter if they cannot justify their disagreement with the teachings of Islam while the Muslims who perform the actions can justify them that way"

Odd. Since about every Muslim I have spoken to who "disagree with certain actions", have justified their disagreement with precisely... teachings of Islam.

Islam is a complex and multifaceted religion. So is - unsurprisingly - its teachings.

These Muslims are of course continually told by Islamophobes that they have misunderstood their own religion. If I had been a more religious man than the agnostic I am I would have prayed to God every single night that they do not one day agree.

Øyvind

"Odd. Since about every Muslim I have spoken to who "disagree with certain actions", have justified their disagreement with precisely... teachings of Islam."

That's interesting, and hopefully good news as well. I take it that these Muslims did not justify their disagreement e.g. by referring to passages of the Koran that have been rendered invalid by abrogation? Or, if they did just that, that they could explain with ease not only why they ignored the "abrogation principle", but more importantly, why those who did not ignore it would be wrong.

More generally speaking, I hope the Muslims could not only justify their disagreement by referring to the teachings of Islam, but actually invalidate the claims of those "bad" Muslims "doing certain actions" that what they do is in accordance with the same teachings.

I would really appreciate it if you could give some examples of what the Muslims you refer to in your post have said.

"These Muslims are of course continually told by Islamophobes that they have misunderstood their own religion. If I had been a more religious man than the agnostic I am I would have prayed to God every single night that they do not one day agree."

So you fear that Muslims can be told by "Islamophobes" (and other "bad people", perhaps?) that they have misunderstood their religion and that the Muslims thus can be convinced that the "Islamophobes" are right and that they are wrong? If so, is this because you fear that the Muslims are ideologically impotent - that they cannot reject on principle what the "Islamophobes" say as being inconsistent with the teachings of Islam?

I really don't hope that what you're suggesting is that Muslims can be manipulated into doing the most horrible things (like e.g. killing non-believers) just because some "bad people" say that it is in accordance with the teachings of their religion, regardless of whether it's correct?

Fallujah sur Seine Day 9. Or is it 10?

Via Fjordman:

The first ever international conference on Islamic feminism, held this week in Barcelona, denounced on Sunday what it termed as "male chauvinist" interpretations of the Koran and claimed that Islam could "liberate" women. "Islam can liberate women and change their status," the conference's final statement read. It also called for a more open interpretation of the Muslim holy book to take into account the context of twenty-first century societies. "Islamic feminism is an emerging reality that must be seen as an alternative to the dominant chauvinist readings [of the Koran]," the statement said, adding that the Koran "does not justify patriarchy". The October 27 to 29 conference was organized by the Catalonian Islamic Board, whose secretary Abdennur Prado called for a "gender jihad" to "struggle against male chauvinistic, homophobic or sexist readings of the sacred texts" during her presentation to the 400 delegates. The conference also saw Amina Wadud, a female Islamic studies professor in the United States give the Friday jutba (sermon) and lead prayers in front of a mixed audience. Wadud caused excitement in March when she led prayers for men and women in a Manhattan Episcopalian church, after three mosques refused her permission for the service. The conference attracted specialists from 15 countries, including Malaysia's Zainah Anwar of Sisters in Islam, and the Iranian director of UNESCO's anti-discrimination campaign, Valentine Moghadma. The event was funded by the Spanish work and social affairs ministry's Institute for Women, as well as the Catalan government.

No, actually I do not believe that the Muslims I know, - including Islamists - are ideologically impotent and will turn to evil because someone tells them that this is what their religion is really all about.

But it is striking that so many of Islams critics claim to know Islam better than Muslims I happen to know, claiming to understand principles like naskh more thorougly, drawing conclusions on Islamic principles that I have never met a single Muslim who do similarily and yet claiming that their analysis is the right and valid one. And thus, I would have prayed that the Muslims would not one day say:

- Hey, those guys are actually right. Our religion is all about terrorism, war and Allah knows what. So, lets get rolling.

Anthony: Of course not. But perhaps the actions of SOME Muslims can be justified by the teachings of the religion to which ALL Muslims belong. That is a more useful perspective, I think.

Yes, but the actions of those other Muslims can be justified by the teachings of Islam as well. So it's not what Islam "is", it's what Muslims do with it, which ranges from good to bad. That is a useful perspective, because it liberates us from having to interpret Islam ourselves, and lets us focus on what we're really concerned about, the actual behavior of Muslims.

Susan: But certainly there seems to be a witch-hunt going on after Fjordman amongst you and your buddies

There seems to be a double standard here. When Fallaci and her supporters go after muslims and their apologists, who they believe are dangerous, with fairly harsh language, which they believe is accurate and justified, this is a good thing. When others go after Fallaci and her supporters, who we believe are dangerous, with less harsh language, which we believe is accurate and justified, this is a witch-hunt.

What Fjordman represents is a danger to us. Because it's a danger, I will warn against it, and convince people not to support it. I will do this by pointing out the flaws of this kind of thinking. I will label it as accurately as I can, as an irrational fear.

This is otherwise known as criticism and debate. I'm drawing a line, and I'm saying some people are on the wrong side of it. They're wrong, and to the extent they're taken seriously, they're dangerous. Luckily they're not taken all that seriously, which is why I don't think we should let the Islamophobes dominate the debate about Islam. The rest of us need a serious debate as well, to sort out the various more or less sensible shades of opinion about it that exist in our own reality.

You can't answer the question, that's why you don't.

Yes, that's why. I know you're right, but I hate truth, and love falsehood. I am a pawn of evil, and when the Muslims take over I'll deserve whatever they do to me.

Anthony: I really don't hope that what you're suggesting is that Muslims can be manipulated into doing the most horrible things (like e.g. killing non-believers) just because some "bad people" say that it is in accordance with the teachings of their religion, regardless of whether it's correct?

Isn't that the case of all of us? Ideas matter. They influence people. Good ideas make people do good things, bad ideas make them to horrible things. We've seen enough to know what we're all of us capable of both, given the right combination of circumstance and influence. As Øyvind says, it's probably not going to happen, but it's a risky strategy to fight Islamism by claiming that it is the only True form of Islam.

Islam is a matter of interpretation - if you don't believe me, look into the differences of opinion between its major thinkers and schools. There's interpretation in deciding whether a tradition is reliable, whether it was meant for all time or a limited period, and whether circumstances influence its relevance. An Islam that considers every commandment we know of to be true and relevant at all times and without any exceptions, would be an Islam full of contradictions. So the Muslims have had to solve that, and they've done it through intricate and often controversial theological arguments. The violent Islamists are the far end of a bell-like curve, with most of Islam being somewhere in a regrettably conservative but non-terrorist non-totalitarian middle.

Bjorn wrote: "Yes, that's why. I know you're right, but I hate truth, and love falsehood. I am a pawn of evil, and when the Muslims take over I'll deserve whatever they do to me."

Just when I was going to ask you, "Bjorn, could I please have your baby?" Your true colors come to light. Woe is me... Well, I guess it's a good thing (that the truth about you came to light) since I am already happily married ;o)

Anyhow, I guess this is as good as a forum as any for me to ask this (since it does fall under Islam and Evil)...

I recently received an email from a woman, who, as am I, is a member of our local Jewish Sisterhood. There is a link:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMe
diaID=60227&ak=null

which one can click on showing a sheik? Imman? Speaking at what I would presume to be a mosque and inciting such hatred towards Jews.

Is this for real? Or, like so many other "doctored" and "dubbed," audio, video, jpegs floating around out there in cyberspace just propaganda?

If it is real, then what does that say about Islam and about muslims?

The clip made me ill. So I'm just curious to know if any one has debunked this one or if it is in fact true.

Erin

Bjorn,
It just seems to me that Islam, for you, is much like English Common Law. The English (British) don't have a constitution so one finds out how British law is, morally speaking, by observing how it evolves and how its practiced over time. Fine. To carry the analogy forward, the US law is grounded on a constitution (doctrine, if you will). It very much matters what the doctrine says in this case because that's how its adherents more or less agree to how things are decided. You seem to be opting for the English Common law interpretation of Islam and that's, I believe, a defensible position. I do believe, however, that those who have chosen to interpret the "morality" of islam based on its doctrine - like the US constitution - have a likewise defensible position. Question; putting aside how islam has actually evolved and is practiced by the majority for the moment; to what degree does its doctrinal "irregularities" predispose its followers, esp. those who opt for a "constitutional grounding of the belief system, towards acting out on those "irregularities". This is rambling but I hope you all get the gist.

Via Rantburg:

Dutch television announced on Friday that Netherlands police arrested a youth who allegedly intended to shoot down an El Al airplane at Schipool Airport outside of Amsterdam.

Samir Azuz, 19, a Dutch citizen of Moroccan descent, was arrested with six other co-conspirators, Israel Radio reported.

According to the Netherlands intelligence service, the suspects enlisted the cooperation of two employees at an office near Schipool in order to perform reconnaissance. They also acquired weapons. Reports revealed that Azuz, apparently expecting to die while bringing down the airplane, had prepared a videotape saying goodbye to his parents.

Approximately six months ago Azuz was acquitted on charges of attempting to vandalize a nuclear power plant in the Netherlands.

Mark: You seem to be opting for the English Common law interpretation of Islam and that's, I believe, a defensible position.

Actually, I like your American constitution analogy better. I am not an American, I'm an outsider. I know there's a document written long ago which sets the basic rules for American society. It is possible for me to read that document on my own, and try to interpret what it means. But my interpretation isn't very interesting, or at least not relevant to understanding American society today. The constitution does not tell me exactly how American society deals with issues like freedom of speech and the right to bear arms, because even though the Bill of Rights deals explicitly with those issues, interpretations of them have varied over the centuries.

For instance, the first amendment only gradually took on the form it has today. Several struggles had to be fought to make it into a broad protection of speech. And the second amendment is just vague enough that there are two major, incompatible readings of it. I could study it closely and determine what the authors really wanted it to mean, but that is not going to help at all in understanding American society as it actually is. Sometimes supporters of gun control have power, sometimes supporters of gun rights. Just reading the text of the amendment does not tell me this. If I want to say something about what Americans think about guns, I have to look at what they actually say, not try to guess based on my personal interpretation of the second amendment.

"..."Islamic feminism is an emerging reality that must be seen as an alternative to the dominant chauvinist readings [of the Koran]," the statement said, adding that the Koran "does not justify patriarchy". The October 27 to 29 conference was organized by the Catalonian Islamic Board, whose secretary Abdennur Prado called for a "gender jihad" to "struggle against male chauvinistic, homophobic or sexist readings of the sacred texts"

....Hmmmphrr...well maybe it is just as well that the feminists and 'revisionists' and ' modernists' within islam gains more and more adherents to the point that Islam becomes defanged.

More power to the Ahmadiyists and fledgling islamo-feminists. But much still needs to be seen as to how much of the obnoxious tenets of islam they adhere to.

@Mark :

I don't quite accept the analogy of Islam with english common law - islam is islam, and to understand islam you have to talk its language, it's like you can't talk hockey using footballese, you have to use 'hockey-ese'.

I liken Islam to a pot of rotten soup-stock. If the Soup-stock is rotten , every other dish derived from it will be tainted and rotten...you just have to throw away the stock and brew another batch afresh. Don't let clever apologists, faux-centrists, and leftists beguile you with their clever rhetorics LOL. I notice that Bjoern and my good friend Abdul Oeyvind are very adroit in this kinds of semantic presdigitations :)

Sister Prasad Meenachi Bhagavatam
Jay Sri Sri Maha Saraswati
O great Goddess Victory is yours over the dark
lords of Eeklam !

शांति बहाल करने के मक़सद से
पेरिस के बाहरी इलाक़ों
में मार्च निकाला गया.

In short, Bjorn, you need to know current discussion and American history.

Hayek had things to say regarding the endurance of cultural/civilizational arrangements over time. My recollection is that he said that there is a very crude but effective evolution and selection process at work on the cultural level and that one should pay attention to "successful and enduring" cultural models because there would be things/qualities/beliefs intrinsic in them that allowed the adherents to survive, transmit culture, and expand. On many objective levels, Islam seems to fit Hayek's definition of a "successful" culture - in an objective sense at least. Western civilization *used to* meet Hayek's definition of an objectively successful culture/civilization. I've been having my doubts though. I am not a cultural relativist. I believe that western civilization is superior. I think the current struggle with Islam is, ultimately, a battle of ideas. I'm not sure the west, in its current post-modern incarnation, is well-equiped to win. We have lost our transcendental touchstones. We've lost beliefs that allow us to see ourselves as part of something much larger. Our ancestors built great cathedrals over several generations. Islam, derivative and medieval, still gives its adherents that sense of the transcendent.

Sook-Im wrote: "Abdul Oeyvind"

I have a servant? Amazing.

Erin:

I believe that the video you link to is indeed authentic. It is the sad truth that Jew-hatred is widespread in the Muslim world, and in Palestine maybe even more so.

What you see in action is one of Europes least honorable exports, combined with anti-Jewish sentiments found in Islamic history. There might be a bit of Wahhabi hatred poured in, as well, just for good measure. Organizations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad are spouting Jew-hatred, often repeating the very same words spoken by European anti-Semitists earlier.

This does not, however, tell us so much about Islam or about Muslims. Surprisingly, for instance, polls show that Palestinians would like to model their own democracy on Israels. Thus, while this video is probably not doctored, the reality it presents might be so. Things just are not that clean.

We should also keep in mind that this disease less than 70 years back swept through Europe, infesting what was perhaps the greatest cultural nation of the time, Germany. I think it would be more than too easy to blame that on a German "national sentiment". And to blame it on Christianity, would be rather absurd, in spite of the German Christian Movement and other pro-Nazi Christians and in spite of Lutheran Protestantism being a product of a man who was hardly fond of the Jews (and also not quite a feminist).

Looking at what created the conditions for ideologies of hatred to grow forth in Europe might, however, teach us something about what conditions are making ideologies of hatred growing forth in the Muslim world as well. This might give us an understanding of the grave problems the Muslim world is facing; from rigid conservatism, stupid anti-modernism and lack of democracy to Jew-hatred and totalitarist ideologies growing forth.

It might also teach us something about the historical process that is taking place in the Muslim world, a process many in the West has failed to notice, thinking that the radicals are fundamentalists, portraying a large number of movements merely in different shades of grey and failing to spot that people who are miles from each other politically and religiously might still be part of the same trend.

Many are calling for a reformation of Islam. They fail to see that the reformation is already well underway. If Servetus has not been executed yet, he will soon be.

"Many are calling for a reformation of Islam. They fail to see that the reformation is already well underway."

But will this "reformed Islam" - should it ever show up - be ideologically equipped to deal with other forms of Islam, such as the e.g. the Islamism kind of Islam? Because if not, how can we be certain that the "reformed Islam" is a viable branch of Islam, and that Muslims pledging allegiance to "reformed Islam" one day will not pledge allegiance to another branch of Islam the next day?

Not only Protestant Christianity was reformed in the European Reformation. De Loyola was a much of a Reformation figure as Calvin. The Anabaptists of Münster were not fat and jolly monks, but then Martin Luther was not so jolly either.

Reformed Islam is already around, and in many shapes and variants. Some look somewhat like the Anabaptists, for sure. Islamism is not competing with reformed Islam; it is Reformed Islam. Although it draws from its roots well back in Islamic history it is a fairly new route of both theology and politics. These people - both the more and the less dangerous of them - are not fundamentalists. They are radicals.

Just like Islamic modernists, liberalists, feminists, etc. many islamists are calling for a reopening of the gates of ijtihad.

They need to do so, because they are already playing by new rules for interpretation of the Qu'ran and of hadith. Once those doors are broken open, though, they are going to be mighty difficult to close again.

Erin, that email you received was most likely authentic. Such things are not at all shocking to those of us "Islamophobes" being ridiculed here on this forum who have been hanging out at Muslim internet forums for years and years.

Yes, we have actually been LISTENING to what Muslims say about their own religion for years -- and no, not on "extremist" sites either -- but Muslim sites like Beliefnet that consider themselves to be "moderate."

There is very little on those "moderate" sites to give one hope about Islam and the people who practice it. Even most of the "moderates" refuse to denounce sharia that legalizes human slavery, dhimmitude and other unpleasant aspects of Islam.

That is why it is silly for Bjorn to ridicule me for "not listening to what Muslims say" about what they believe. I DO listen to what Muslims say. I have a grown son who converted to Islam and have been listening to what he's been saying about his "religion" for more than 10 years. is NOT NICE, it is NOT compatible with the Western way of viewing things. They are here, and they ARE trying to undermine our societies and establish Islamic rule in our countries. This is a fact -- I have seen and heard more than anyone here will ever know.

Oeyvind -- as usual, a lot of hot air. You have fallen in love with your subject matter and love is blind. An interview with that old snake-oil
salesman Tariq Ramadan on your website?Oh please!

So once again, Resolved: It is not crazy or irrational for non-Muslim people to fear Islam, given the results that Islam has produced in both non-Muslim and Muslim-majority countries alike.

How many for, how many against?

It is really that simple.

Viewing what is happening in France right now, the burned churches, the stoned synogues, the shouts of Allahu Akbar, and in Denmark and Holland, where Islam is choking their freedom of speech, art and expression -- how many of the readers of this forum
agree, how many disagree?

What Fjordman represents is a danger to us. Because it's a danger, I will warn against it, and convince people not to support it. I will do this by pointing out the flaws of this kind of thinking. I will label it as accurately as I can, as an irrational fear.

Pardon me, but this is just morally relativistic crap of the worst kind. Fjordman is "dangerous" because he warns that some government authorities have been fiddling about with Muslim rape and crime figures? My how dangerous!

If Fjordman is "dangerous" then what does one call the person who killed Theo Van Gogh? The ones who are trying to kill Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders? The ones who are threatening the Danish newspaper simply for publishing a few mild cartoons about the Muhammaden prophet?

I see little -- umm, actually ZERO -- discussion or condemnation of those people amongst your oh-so-fair-minded and tolerant buddies.

But Fjordman -- Fjordman is "dangerous."

I almost spit wine at my monitor when I read that. This site is hazardous to the health of my electronic equipment!

Susan: Fjordman is "dangerous" because he warns that some government authorities have been fiddling about with Muslim rape and crime figures?

Fjordman is dangerous because he invents a desperate situation, the origins of a coming civil war, a situation made inevitable by the Evil of Islam, and which requires unstated desperate measures to avoid. I am very afraid of what those desperate measures will turn it to be, once the Islamophobes get around to thinking about it.

Fjordman is dangerous because he does not understand Islam, and works to spread his confusion to others, thus making them less able to understand and come to terms with the culture of many of our immigrants, and less able to understand and fight the Islamist terrorist threat.

Fjordman is like a fireman who comes to a burning house, but thinks the whole block is on fire, and by the time he comes around to saving the one house that is really burning, he has no more water left.

"If Fjordman is "dangerous" then what does one call the person who killed Theo Van Gogh?"

He was dangerous.

"The ones who are trying to kill Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders?"

They are dangerous.

"The ones who are threatening the Danish newspaper simply for publishing a few mild cartoons about the Muhammaden prophet?"

They are dangerous.

And so we need to focus on them, and the threat they represent, which Islamophobia prevents us from. Fjordman and his followers will hopefully never be in a position to introduce the desperate measures they imply are necessary to fight Islam, but they are in a position to undermine the cause they fight for by making us misunderstand the threat we're facing.

Bjørn Stærk: Fjordman is dangerous because he invents a desperate situation, the origins of a coming civil war.

Yes, and after watching tv images of muslim mobs in France chanting allahu akbar and wreaking havoc, we all understand just how unlikely the civil war Fjordman warns about is...

Bjørn Stærk is an islam-apologist - and this time in age, nothing could be more dangerous than that...

France has been playing dhimmi for years, and this is their reward.

...the amazing thing is that europe is populated with a lot of expatriates from many other countries, notably hindus and asians ( buddhist, taoists etc ) , yet all these other minority groups seem to integrate nicely into european societies.

Take the case of holland, there are plenty of hindus, sikhs, buddhists, new agers, christians etc. from other countries all in the melting pot of liberal holland and yet it is a home grown dutch muslim fanatic that shot and decapitated Theo van Gogh ( great great grandson of Vincent van Gogh) last year on amsterdam street ......all because he was offended by Theo van Goghs movie about how islam ill treats women !

funny we don't have sikhs and buddhists or hindus or chinese immigrants in europe running around torching houses, cars, churches, schools and buses?............hmmmm could it be that peaceful Islam has something to do with it...........duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh :-)

...oh well I'm sure Bjoern and my good friend Abdul Oeyvind will come up with some far flung theory that it is the obnoxious french that have failed in integrating muslim youths into french society. Actually in one of the BBC news, French president Monsieur Chirac was wringing his hand when he told the president of Latvia that the french have to come to terms with the fact that they have failed to integrate the muslim immigrant groups into french society ...(naturally nothing is mentioned of the apartheid nature of islam)...more dhimmi foolishness

( yohoo Oeyvind it is Abdullah Oeyvind, Abd -ul-llah ie." Oeyvind Slave of Allah"= a very honorific title for scholars of islam :-)..........nope, no servant for you, muslims do not have servants or slaves, all are the same in the eyes of Allah, noooooooot! tee -heeeeeeeee)

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47285 ( intifada in france - the new Paristinians...yes you read it right PARIStinians nyuk nyuk )

Sister Prasad Meenachi Bhagavatam

위험한 사교안에 전문가 그리고 전문가

Rhino Thue: Yes, and after watching tv images of muslim mobs in France chanting allahu akbar and wreaking havoc, we all understand just how unlikely the civil war Fjordman warns about is...

Yes. Would you classify this as a civil war, or the beginning of one? Why?

Well, we'll see if frogistan trades land for peace.

Then the beachhead has been established, Balkans here you come!

Rhino Thue,

Bjoern is speaking 'clintonese'( not cantonese but clintonese)

.....remember that famous interchange : " define ' sex '....well he did not engage in any penetrative enterprise so technically he did not have sex , based on the missionary definition of 'sex'.....( actually i don't dislike Clinton, but i'm just using his tactics as an analogy to the sleek semasiology that Bjoern is engaging in to defend his viewpoints LOL )

o.k. for Bjoern...define 'war', define 'civil', define 'define', Bjoern is engaging in loopey doopey circular and deflectory logic since he knows that the stark truth of islam's nefarious nature is staring him in the face and he like my good friend abdul oeyvind both are straining hard to 'understand' and 'study' and 'define' islam................after all did not abdul oeyvind somewhere earlier in this blog mentioned that reform in islam is already underway, us dumb dhimmi's just are not astute enuf to notice it....ahem...is all the violence world wide connected to islam, part of the reformation ??? haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah !

sister Prasad Meenachi Bhagavatam
specialist in the gates of ijtihad
o.k. if you open the gates of hell , all hell will break loose :-)

Once again, the froggies might be able to stop this with a show of power. If they don't, the darkness comes again.

On to the 6th republic, either way. They have a chance to get it right economically, but they won't, after all, as l'escroc (?) said, unregulated anglo-saxon market capitalism is the new communism.

Oooh Susan,

I almost drop my cup of hot coffee on my foot when i read of your son's enslavement into Eeeeeklam!

I am so sorry to read that your Son had converted to islam. My condolences...i can understand how it must be tearing at a mother's heart to see her love-one suckered into the vile and murderous cult of Eeklam -masquerading as a religion.

How did this come about. Did you try to reason with him.Have you sent him Dr. Ali Sina's web site on 'leaving Islam'.

I am sure the sentiments that you and I feel ( and perhaps Sandy too ) cannot be understood by the likes of Bjoern or Abdul Oeyvind ( o.k. boys stop throwing a fit or tantrum -- you both would'nt know islam if it slapped you upside the head or bit you in the butt LOL :-)........to them both the dimensions of human tragedy are just a trifling too unimportant, what matters is their faux-academique 'understanding' of islam as another exotic ingredient in the 'multi-cultural' pot-pourri....or as you so aptly characterize = lots of hot air :)

For someone to be born into Islam is truly an act of dastardly fate, but for someone in free society to 'convert' into islam is tantamount to a 'death-wish' (sorry , Susan, i don't mean to be harsh on your son, just stating the harsh truth and playing the devil's advocate)

....to me it would be like a free man willingly placing shackles on his feet and manacles on his hands and giving up the faculty of reason. Oh , i am sure 'centrists', and leftists, and apologists and the whole train-load of quislings will disagree with my statements, but it is precisely folks like them who are subscribing to the philosophy of the 'emperor's new clothes' who are truly DANGEROUS and who will ultimately sell us out or deliver us as sacrificial lambs to the marauding Eeeklamists.

Islam is a Theocracy, there is no room for inquiry .........click on this link:

http://wri.leaderu.com/articles/islam-singh.html#VI ( Parvin Singh's commentary on Islam )

......by the way running around and interviewing this and that Sheikh is not the most ideal way to learn and experience Islam.

Sister Prasad Meenachi Bhagavatam

Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Samma Sam Buddhasa!

All is not well on the western frontier....and also on the eastern frontier - Thailand, indonesia....and gasp! Australia - they just foiled a bunch of would-be terrorists hell bent on creating havoc in Australasia.........Oh those darn christians, buddhists and shintoists and hindus, they are such trouble-makers, why can't they just live peacefully with those friendly and peace-loving eeeeeklamists ? :)

Sawadi-cah

Sister Srisuriyothai Kim

ติดตามความเคลื่อนไหวทุกด้าน
ของเมืองไทยจากสื่อสิ่งพิมพ์
บนอินเทอเนตที่เป็นภาษาไทย

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/terror.htm ( i will cast terror in the hearts of disbelievers.........Quran)

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/GrantSwank51031.htm
( prince charles is fond of islam, scolds americans for being too harsh on islam ,,,,,,,,,duuuuuh )

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/LeighDrummond51105.htm
( letter to the queen)

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina51103.htm
( prince charles - the constantine of Islam? )

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47236 ( radical islam blamed for french rioting )

http://www.ridingsun.com/posts/1131269659.shtml
(muslim unrests sweep Europe ! France, england,Denmark, belgium, holland, sweden, spain, portugal, italy etc..........)

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/BarbaraStock51107.htm
( how long before Europe falls ?)

Or are they reforming backwards?

"is all the violence world wide connected to islam, part of the reformation?".

Quite often; yes. A reformation sadly often takes more than a fat fellow hammering up some critical comments on a church door.

When it comes to the violence in Paris these days, I am more unsure. Personally I see quite striking similarities to the Watts riots.

Sandy wrote: "Or are they reforming backwards?"

Depends who you mean by them. Some definitely are, the people Olivier Roy - in my opinion mistakenly - call neofundamentalists. While I do not agree with the name he uses for them, Olivier Roys description of them is in my opinion quite precise.

I don't recall churches being burned during the Watts riots, but I was very young.

And those living in Watts weren't as well-paid/had great bennies as those kids have.

Yes, sister kim, it is true about my son. Not all of us "Islamophobes" came into existence on 9/11/01. My family was receiving a battering from the religion of peace long before then.

What Oyvind and Bjorn don't understand is that most "Islamophobes" are made, not born. I won't bore the people here with many details from my sorry tale, but about five or six years ago I went through all the classic Kubler-Ross stages of grief -- shock, denial, grief, acceptance. Only I didn't have a corpse, sympathy cards, or flowers. But my beloved child went from a sweet somewhat mixed-up kid to a Jew-hating loon that I didn't recognize. I dealt with my prolonged grief by reading everything I could about Islam so I could steer my child away from it, or at least to a more "tolerant" version of it. I spent thousands of hours studying it -- but I never found that "tolerant" version of Islam that Oyvind brags about. I found various variations on my son's version of Islam. Until he moved away to another state, he was attending
an "Islamic Center" with links to sayings from Syed Qutb on its website. . .that's the least of it. Oh, the things I've seen and heard! they would curl your hair.

Bjorn -- so nobody should talk about Muslim rape
statistics, the often-racist crimes that are comitted against "the kuffar" in the West, for fear of somehow "wrecking" the fight against
radical "Islamism" (something which I don't agree exists)? Sorry but that doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Fjordman isn't dangerous, Bjorn. The people who are "dangerous" are people like me, the people who've had a serious hurt put on them by Islam. And our ranks are growing. We won't shut up. It's parents of converts like me -- almost all of whom universally despise Islam. It's the 50-
year-old Dutch woman in the conservative business suit who's been called "slut" and "dirty whore" one too many times on a street in her own country. It's the father of a 14-year-old Australian gang-rape victim who was told to shut up about the racist nature of her attack for fear of upsetting the multiculturalists. It's the Coptic Christian refugee living in New Jersey and afraid that the intolerance he fled in his native land has followed him to his new land.

We won't be shut up, we will be heard.

Sandy P,

I would hazard an opinion that Islamic contempt for the kuffar is not the only fuel for the French riots. Welfare statism/socialism is in it too.

Sadly, it looks like the "solutions" the French are invoking will only make things worse in the long run -- more Islam (let's pay for more mosques!), and more job-killing.
socialism.

France's economy was already in the toilet before this started. In addition to having to pay for all the clean-up, the dhimmies in France will also see their economy shrink even further due to lost tourist revenues. On top of that, billions more in welfare to bribe the suburbs to keep quiet -- until they want more, of course. All of which means more unemployment, more shrinking of the economy, and around and around we go.

Sad.

Idle hands are the devil's playthings.

People need jobs to make them feel like they are contributing something and to integrate them into their community instead of isolating them.

So, here we have a religion which considers itself superior and the rest of us are lowly and they look down on women even more.

How are they supposed to take direction from same kuffir and especially women kuffir?

Until they learn to render unto God what is God's and Caesar what is Caesar's, we're going to have a problem.

Bjørn:

"Fjordman is dangerous because he invents a desperate situation, the origins of a coming civil war, a situation made inevitable by the Evil of Islam, and which requires unstated desperate measures to avoid. I am very afraid of what those desperate measures will turn it to be, once the Islamophobes get around to thinking about it.

Fjordman is dangerous because he does not understand Islam, and works to spread his confusion to others, thus making them less able to understand and come to terms with the culture of many of our immigrants, and less able to understand and fight the Islamist terrorist threat."

Do you know something about fjordman that we do not know ?
Fjordman points at troublespots and speculate as to what that can mean in the future, and he does that in particular and nothing else.
Does he have to place something like this :::

((((Disclaimer: im not targeting all moslems, I am aware there are more peaceful moslems, even some very charming ones inspired by the Indian bhakti tradition who seeks only to fill themselves with love towards man and as the path to God. I am aware islam is complex and not all moslems are terrorists in waiting just waiting for the chance to cut my throat or blow up the marketplace. ))))

in every second line while he unravel the heavy and disproportionate involvement in crime, terrorism, rape, domestic violence held by people of moslem origin?

"he invents a desperate situation, the origins of a coming civil war, a situation made inevitable by the Evil of Islam,"

Now I would predict the same, it´s not invention, it´s prediction, it might happen, it might not, but it could happen and anyone should be able to get a clue about that, on top of the recent events in France.
Apart from France and Sweden and perhaps Holland I dont think any other country is under any serious threat of civil war, it ofcourse depends on how many immigrants they keep letting in.
And islam has it´s part since it by decree is meant to be superior not inferior and it is meant to fight "oppression" Muhammad showed the way to how little and lame an excuse you needed to initiate combat, actually they feel oppressed the moment they are majority in an area and not allowed to decide rules of the game there. I am sorry for generalizing, I am not, it wasn´t the full 5 mio. "moslems" you saw in the streets, it never will be but in time it will get more and more and they will be eventually heavily armed, this I predict for France.

But I guess this is where we disagree and you start to consider islamphobic "dangers".

You might fear what measures there will be, I personally first of all fear what it is that we must take those measures against.

Thus we are for both talking shadowy events which are hard to tell what exactly to do about.

But I can tell you what I would have done against the rampage in France, I would have called in the army, kept the same orders to only shoot when fired upon, but surrounding flock by flock of the vandals making sure no escape route open, then arrest each and every one, sentence them hard and kick out all it wiould be possible to do so with of the country.

Then full stop of immigration I say permanent, then making special arrangements with selected countries closer to our culture and from which we have good experiences.

Tough line on extremists, imans that are preaching jihad in any violent variation must leave, so must their overt supporters and followers, anyone having ties to terrorist cells or extremist organizations anywhere in the world including hamas, anyone who had training in Aghanistan, fought in Bosnia as muhajedin etc. will also be kicked out if nothing to send them to jail can be provided.

I would consider educating imans at home, making sure they maintain a respect for democracy and secular society rather than continously having to send radical imans away.

I would give Intelligence services wide tapping authority and the possibility to use wires as substantial evidence.

I would try to send of immigrants kids well off from school disallowing anyone to leave school without being able to read properly and attaining a certain standard, unless you legitimate are mentally retarded, and fight hard the prejudices that keeps immigrants from work and education. Most of them originate in their own prejudice about the "rascist" society that will not employ people because the are named muhammad. A variety of role models, help with homework the parents might not be capable off etc.

But the list is long and I like to be pretty specific: but in short:

fight ghettoes or that areas of only immigrants gets to lawless "zones" trying to spread them out and get them in more contact with rest of society.

Equip and train army and police for civil riots and also give them extensive training in urban combat, not because I believe civil war will take place in Denmark but because I consider it a essential part of modern combat and the fight against a group like al qaida which loves to hide among civilians to claim that we massacre those when we fight them. They will probably claim no matter what but the people who witnessed will know.

I have no plan to massacre of moslems, most of them are as much at the receiving end of madness as we are. They ought to leave islam rather than cry out about we are hurting their sensibilities when we aim of the truely dangerous islamists, because as khomenei said :

"Why do you only read the Quranic verses of mercy and do not read the verses of killing?

Quran says; kill, imprison!

Why are you only clinging to the part that talks about mercy? "

The problem lies at root of islam and the salafis do not claim they are the true moslems without reason.

I do however think the day will come where nukes might be used by terrorists and then the world will go crazy. There is a conflict going on between some of them and all of us don´t matter how we turn it and underestimating the zeal of these people and the threat they pose, the lenght they will go to, and their end goal, their whole radical and medieval version of islam is very dangerous.

"
Jordanian Television (September 13, 1995)
"Since we cannot defeat Israel in war we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel." Yasser Arafat

", "Islam wants the whole earth and does not content itself with only a part thereof. It wants and requires the entire inhabited world. It does not want this in order that one nation dominates the earth and monopolizes its sources of wealth, after having taken them away from one or more other nations. No, Islam wants and requires the earth in order that the human race altogether can enjoy the concept and practical program of human happiness, by means of which God has honored Islam and put it above the other religions and laws. In order to realize this lofty desire, Islam wants to employ all forces and means that can be employed for bringing about a universal all-embracing revolution. It will spare no effort for the achievement of this supreme objective. This far-reaching struggle that continuously exhausts all forces and this employment of all possible means are called jihad." Mawdudi

"Resistance in Iraq and Palestine is Legitimate; America is Satan; Islam Will Invade America and Europe "
Muslim Brotherhood movement leader "Muhammad Mahdi Othman 'Akef "

"The real weapons of mass destruction are the desire for martyrdom. Millions of you are ready to be shaheed. Half a million martyrdom shaheed is enough for Muslims to control the whole of earth forever. In the end of the day, Islam must control earth, whether we like it or not."
Sheikh Abu Hamza Al-Masri

"Is there art that is more beautiful, more divine, and more eternal than the art of martyrdom? A nation with martyrdom knows no captivity. Those who wish to undermine this principle undermine the foundations of our independence and national security. They undermine the foundation of our eternity.
"The message of the [Islamic] Revolution is global, and is not restricted to a specific place or time. It is a human message, and it will move forward.
"Have no doubt... Allah willing, Islam will conquer what? It will conquer all the mountain tops of the world."

Iranian President-Elect Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad
"

"“Indeed, our words remain dead, until we die in their cause, so they remain alive amongst the living”.

Sayyid Qutb Rahimahullah
"

""Jihad and the rifle alone. NO negotiations, NO conferences and NO dialogue."
Sheikh Abdullah Azzam,

"He said the only reason Hamas is honoring a truce is because "it is important for the Palestinian people. We are going to give them a chance to enjoy some breathing room after the occupation." Sami Abuzughri, , chief spokesman for the group. "Hamas"

"But the reality is that the freedom that they’re talking about is nothing other than forcing the Muslims to accept laws that legalise homosexuality, fornication, adultery etc.”" Richard Reid - ( shoebomber )

"We have a strategy drawn up for the destruction of Anglo-Saxon civilization... we must make use of everything we have at hand to strike at this front by means of our suicide operations or by means of our missiles. There are 29 sensitive sites in the U.S. and in the West. We have already spied on these sites and we know how we are going to attack them."

Ahmadinejad's chief strategic guru Hassan Abbassi,

""I am telling you that my religion doesn't tolerate other religion. It doesn't tolerate. The only one law which needs to spread, it can be here or anywhere else, has to be Islam," he said."

Abu Bakr ( AUS )

"say that the West's occupation of our country is old, yet new, and that the confrontation and conflict between us and them started centuries ago. The confrontation and conflict will continue because the conflict between right and falsehood will continue until Judgment Day. "

Osama Bin Laden

“Is it wrong for a black person to be KKK-phobic or apartheid-phobic? For a Jew to be Nazi-phobic?”

It is if a black person becomes white phobic because of the existence of the KKK, or if jews become Germanphobic because of the actions of nazis.

“In what Muslim dominated state are non-Muslims free from persecution and religious racism?”

Indonesia the most populous muslim nation in the world – they don’t seem to have too much state sanctioned oppression of non-islamics. Many of their provinces ei; Balanise, West Papua are not islamic.

"We don't want to share their fate?"

I thought you were promoting the oppression of Muslims in western countries similar to what non-muslims get in the middle east. You know, all that stuff you said about banning Islam, deporting Muslims and forcible conversions. The best way to ensure that we ‘don’t share their fate” is to limit the ability of the state to impose minority oppression on its people and to ensure that we do not allow the state to bend too much in the face of their special interest demands.

“How come no one has ever answered this question intelligently on this blog?”

Perhaps its difficult to provide an answer acceptable to one as hysterical as you are.

“How come you pro-Islam-apologist people can't answer that simple question?

I didn’t realise there were any pro-Islam people on this blog. I thought it was merely Boern (hardly a proto-islamic facist) facnig an array of Islamophobes.

Bjoern,

What ever happened to that rule about commentors not posting massive comments, or dumping whole articles into the comments section.

IN with the Islamophobes out with blogging convention!!

I would have thought that the riots of france were due in part to the exclusiveness of french society, and the problems of a social model that leaves far too many without skills, work and any means to remedy the situation. Their long-term unemployment rates appear to be dissmal. An important indicating when you consider how hard it is to get back into the job market after a long stint of unemployment. Just ask any single mother.

David Elson wrote:

"Indonesia the most populous muslim nation in the world – they don’t seem to have too much state sanctioned oppression of non-islamics. Many of their provinces ei; Balanise, West Papua are not islamic"

David,
I don't know whether you have been asleep these past no. of years or had been in a state of suspended animation in an ancient cavern on top of mount Kanchengjunga : )

At any rate , I feel compelled to correct your foregoing statement which implies that indonesia is somehow free of mohammad inspired persecution of non muslims. I refer you to the following links to immediately dispel your false notions or perhaps innocent and naive understanding of current affairs in indonesia and for that matter australasia......>>>>>>

http://www.geocities.com/islamic_monitor/human_rights.html#Indonesia ( islamic persecution of non muslims in indonesia and world wide )

http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/dhimmi.htm ( state of Dhimmitude, an overview ex. terrorizing of christians and hindus and other non muslims in indonesia )

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1033568/posts ( mohammad inspired persecution of jews, christians and other non muslims in indonesia )

....and further since we are on the topic of islam, muslims, islamism, threat and terrorism associated with this wonderful 'religion of peace and love ' :) may i be so bold as to refer you to just one more teeny weeny little link for additional enlightenment regarding a continent called Australia which is about to experience the love and peace afforded by this ( ahem !) wonderful religion of islam - a mercy unto mankind LOL :) and double :) :)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

http://au.news.yahoo.com/051102/19/wm4k.html ( australia faces danger of home grown islamist threat)

Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
Specialist in irrational adamic cults

In a state of suspended animation in an ancient cavern on top of mount Kanchengjunga : )

Great views. Although I assume that as I am in suspended animation that I can't actually see anything (makes it a bit difficult to type on here as well).

"indonesia is somehow free of mohammad inspired persecution of non muslims."

I was under the impression (courtesy of Australian media) that most of this kind of thing is initiated by members of indonesian society (rather than being from government decree like in Iran).

I was under the impression (courtesy of Australian media) that most of this kind of thing is initiated by members of indonesian society (rather than being from government decree like in Iran).
David Elson:

Have you not read of the hundreds of churches that have been bombed and burned, and the thousands of Christians who have been raped and murdered since 1998 in Indonesia? The Christian girls who were beheaded last month, and the Christian schoolteachers who were sentenced to prison for the "crime" of giving church T-shirts to Muslim students at a Christian school?

You must be a rare type of idiot to cite Indonesia of all places as an example of Islamic "tolerance".

David Elson, I thought you were promoting the oppression of Muslims in western countries similar to what non-muslims get in the middle east. You know, all that stuff you said about banning Islam, deporting Muslims and forcible conversions.

I presume this pearl of wisdom was directed at me. I never said anything about banning Islam, deporting Muslims or forcible conversions. Yet
again, a very rare type of idiot are you.

I said that criminals from the immigrant population should be deported and that Westerners who want to preserve their civilization should support the conversion of Western Muslims to another religion, as in donating money to missionary organizations etc. Doesn't particularly concern me WHAT religion, just not Islam.

Quit putting words into peoples' mouths, oh transparent one.

“How come no one has ever answered this question intelligently on this blog?”

Perhaps its difficult to provide an answer acceptable to one as hysterical as you are.

Still no credible or intelligent answers, just insults directed at me and others posting here, and incredibly moronic comments along the lines of "there is no religious repression in Indonesia."

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?
tid=700&id=2170542005

Frankly David, I can't believe the depth (or is it height) of your foolishness. I have several email friends amongst the Chinese Christians of Indonesia, I wish I could get them in the same room as you for 10 minutes or so.

Happy New Year David! 8 Indonesian Christians blown up and 45 injured for the "crime" of frequenting a pork market:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/30/AR2005123001754.html

Allahu Akbar!

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